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Dispute with an agency which refuses to pay my invoice (France > Switzerland)
Thread poster: Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2011)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
I finally managed to send that person a recorded letter to ask for the payment of my invoice Aug 14, 2018

Thank you all!
Phew...

Madame,

J'ai effectué pour vous une traduction le 26 juin 2018 pour laquelle vous m'avez envoyé un bon de commande ne stipulant aucune condition de non paiement en cas de retard ou de problème de qualité ni conditions générales de vente.
Celui-ci ne comprenait que l'objet de la commande et son prix.

J'ai procédé à la traduction du texte envoyé, que je vous ai livré dans les temps, j'ai donc rempli ma mission.... See more
Thank you all!
Phew...

Madame,

J'ai effectué pour vous une traduction le 26 juin 2018 pour laquelle vous m'avez envoyé un bon de commande ne stipulant aucune condition de non paiement en cas de retard ou de problème de qualité ni conditions générales de vente.
Celui-ci ne comprenait que l'objet de la commande et son prix.

J'ai procédé à la traduction du texte envoyé, que je vous ai livré dans les temps, j'ai donc rempli ma mission.

Le 2 juillet au matin, vous m'avez contactée pour un problème de qualité de la traduction en m'informant que vous m'enverriez le document à valider à 18h, en dehors de mes heures de travail. Je vous ai demandé de me l'envoyer à 17h, car je devais aller chercher mes enfants à l'école et pensant n'avoir qu'une heure de travail à faire sur le document.
Vous m'avez dit que vous me l'enverriez à 17h, mais vous l'avez en fait envoyé à 18h, me mettant donc dans l'embarras, et me mettant la pression de répondre dans une heure.
Etant avec mes filles et en panique, je n'ai pas pu leur faire à manger ce soir-là ni m'occuper de leurs devoirs, car en tant que professionnelle, j'ai fait passer mon travail en première priorité.
Quelle ne fut pas ma surprise lorsque j'ai vu que le document envoyé était rouge de correction et était absolument impossible à corriger !
J'ai ensuite eu la désagréable surprise de constater que la plupart des erreurs corrigées étaient préférentielles (ce qui ne constitue en aucun cas un problème de qualité) et que vous aviez même commis de lourdes erreurs dans le texte et introduit des contresens et erreurs flagrantes.
Je l'ai fait vérifier par deux pairs française qui se sont accordées sur le fait que vos corrections sont préférentielles et que d'autres n'ont aucun sens, car vous n'êtes pas native française, et encore moins ingénieur informatique comme moi. J'ai fait la liste des erreurs qui a été validée, et je peux vous la transmettre.

Comprenant que j'allais devoir passer une nuit à regarder vos corrections, j'ai jugé utile et plus rapide de vous fournir une liste des éléments sur lesquels je n'étais pas d'accord, remplissant ma partie du contrat. Vous avez pris un ton insultant en me disant que mes corrections ne valaient rien, alors que je ne souhaitais que soulever un gros problème dans les corrections et fournir un travail de qualité au client. Je n'avais même pas compris à ce moment-là que vous aviez vous-même procédé aux corrections, car je pensais que vous auriez fait relire le texte par un traducteur français natif, ce qui est la base dans notre métier. Jamais je ne me permettrais de corriger un texte anglais, même si je suis bilingue, car une des règles de notre profession est de ne traduire que dans sa langue native.

J'ai posté un fil sur le forum de ProZ sur lequel tous mes pairs s'accordent sur le fait que votre intention de base était de ne pas me payer, car mon travail ne vous convenait pas pour une raison que j'ignore (vous « préfériez » votre version et votre manière de traduire, et visiblement mon style ne vous convenait pas) et surtout je leur ai présenté les erreurs que vous avez intégrées au texte, et tous se sont accordés pour dire qu'elles étaient inacceptables.

Il y avait effectivement quelques coquilles dans mon texte, comme dans toute traduction, et lorsque vous avez réalisé que j'avais argumenté sur toutes celles que je n'acceptais pas et que mes arguments étaient fondés, vous vous êtes focalisées dessus, alors que j'avais relevé des dizaines de contresens et erreurs grossières dans vos corrections, ce qui est absolument inacceptable. Vous m'avez fait croire que mon travail était médiocre et m'avez signifié de manière agressive et non professionnelle que je devais procéder à la correction de votre document, ce qui m'aurait pris des heures, en me faisant comprendre que vous ne me payeriez pas. J'ai tout de suite compris que j'allais passer la nuit sur un document que j'avais pris une journée à traduire et que vous n'aviez pas l'intention de me payer. Ceci m'a également été confirmé par mes pairs de ProZ, un grand classique.

Vous m'avez accusée honteusement d'avoir utilisé Google Translate alors que je suis traductrice professionnelle depuis 8 ans, que j'ai un Master 2 de traduction et que je travaille en tant qu'ingénieur informatique/traductrice depuis 1998, j'étais atterrée par votre comportement insultant. Jamais on ne m'a avancé de tels arguments. Et jamais surtout je n'aurais utilisé Google Translate. Je suis fière de mon travail et travaille pour de clients très célèbres tels que Google et Dell et jamais je n'ai eu de tels retours, encore moins de menaces et jamais on ne m'a parlé de la sorte. Les problèmes de qualité se règlent à l'amiable dans notre profession, et jamais on ne les soumet en dehors des heures de travail, et cela n'implique jamais de demander une remise sur le prix du travail.

Lorsque j'ai soumis vos corrections à mes pairs sur ProZ, ceux-ci ont jugé que vous parliez le « fritalian » et qu'en aucun cas vous n'auriez dû corriger un texte français dans lequel vous avez ajouté des contresens, erreurs grossières tant sur le plan syntaxique que technique.

Vous m'avez bien sûr demandé une remise de 50% sur mon travail, chose à laquelle je m'attendais vu le ton de nos échanges, ce qui n'est pas acceptable, étant donné que nulle part votre bon de commande il apparaît qu'un problème de qualité pourrait impliquer une demande de remise. Vous devez donc sans aucune équivoque me payer pour le travail que j'ai fait et enfreignez tous les codes de notre profession.

Je vous demande donc de me payer le plus rapidement possible ma facture, sans quoi je serai dans l'obligation d'informer le Blue Board de ProZ de vos pratiques malhonnêtes, puis d'engager une procédure par voie de saisie par le biais de l'office général de la justice de la Conféfération suisse via un commandement de payer. Etant donné les circonstances et le flou dans lequel vous avez passé commande, puis les preuves flagrantes de votre mauvaise foi, confirmée par deux traducteurs et toute la communauté ProZ, je me verrai dans l'obligation de porter l'affaire devant un juge, et si l'on me donne raison, vous devrez payer également pour les frais de procédure engagé par mon avocate, Déborah Martos, maître au barreau de Montpellier en France, qui est en copie de ce courrier.

Je vous prie donc de bien vouloir procéder au paiement de ma facture dans les dix jours, dès réception de ce courrier, sans quoi j'entamerai une procédure judiciaire pour le recouvrement de cette créance.

Cordialement,
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Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:40
French to English
Commentaires Aug 14, 2018

Ayant eu une expérience semblable récemment et après pas loin de 25 ans d'expérience de la traduction, je me permets de faire deux ou trois commentaires sur votre courrier.

Longueur et affect.
Ce courrier est long. Je connais le sentiment d'injustice que génère ce type de situation. On investit du temps et de l'énergie dans une traduction. On essaie toujours de bien faire et lorsque les critiques ne sont pas justifiées, pour les raisons que vous évoquez, on est outré
... See more
Ayant eu une expérience semblable récemment et après pas loin de 25 ans d'expérience de la traduction, je me permets de faire deux ou trois commentaires sur votre courrier.

Longueur et affect.
Ce courrier est long. Je connais le sentiment d'injustice que génère ce type de situation. On investit du temps et de l'énergie dans une traduction. On essaie toujours de bien faire et lorsque les critiques ne sont pas justifiées, pour les raisons que vous évoquez, on est outrée! Toutefois, pour être efficace, un courrier de ce type doit aller droit au but. Exprimer sa colère est utile, mais pour être efficace, il est bien de doser, de viser juste et de sortir deux ou trois pépites, bien placées. Ainsi vous aurez plus de chance d'être entendue et être prise au sérieux.

Vie personnelle.
Les clients n'ont rien à faire de notre vie personnelle. On se présente comme un professionnel de la traduction et notre relation avec le client est professionnelle. Il vaut mieux que cela reste ainsi. Les difficultés organisationelles occasionnées par ce genre de désagrément sont votre problème, pas celui du client. Après tout, à tort ou à raison (et d'après ce que j'en ai compris, plutôt à tort), le client a passé du temps à "corriger" la traduction. Peut-être cela a-t-il occasioné des problèmes organisitionnels pour la personne qui a dû s'en charger. Vous vous en fichez, ce n'est pas votre problème, mais le leur.

Pardonnez-moi si je parais un peu direct sur ce point, mais je pense qu'il faut faire la dsitinction entre la vie professionnelle et la vie privée. (Vous auriez pu indiquer tout simplement que cela a fichu votre planning en l'air, sans évoquer vos enfants).

ProZ et action.
Je pense que ce forum est public. Expliquer que vous avez échangé avec des collègues en ligne peut rendre les échanges encore plus compliqués. Pour que le client voie la mauvaise pub que vous pouvez faire et votre intention d'agir pour recouvrer la somme due, une phrase ou deux suffisent en général.

C'est probablement ma formation initiale juridique qui ressort, mais au fil des ans, j'ai appris à faire tenir ce gener de courrier sur une seule page, à quelques exceptions près. Je trouvais plus simple de le faire pour d'autres que pour moi-même. Pourquoi? Car l'affect n'y est pas. Lorsque l'on le fait pour soi, il est bien de rédiger un jour et d'envoyer le lendemain, une fois la colère retombée. A force d'écrire pour soi, on a tendance à repréciser les détails qui ont déjà été transmis et, surtout, au fil du récit, la colère remonte de nouveau. Si on arrive à prendre sur soi, non seulement on renvoie une image plus sérieuse et professionnelle, on investit plus utilement son énergie et on est réellement à même de mieux gérer le truc.

Bonne chance!

[Edited at 2018-08-14 15:48 GMT]
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John Fossey
ibz
Germaine
 
Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2011)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
I don't agree Aug 14, 2018

Je prépare ma contre-attaque, et je voulais évoquer tous les points du problème, car je risque de passer devant un juge de proximité, donc je n'aurais pas à tout réexpliquer.
Je suis juste tactique, je ne me justifie pas pour elle, mais pour présenter un dossier qui à mon avis va s'avérer bien long, vu qu'elle ne va pas lâcher l'affaire.
Comment se justifier devant la justice de proximité si on ne donne pas tous les éléments? J'ai perdu du temps à court terme, mais pas
... See more
Je prépare ma contre-attaque, et je voulais évoquer tous les points du problème, car je risque de passer devant un juge de proximité, donc je n'aurais pas à tout réexpliquer.
Je suis juste tactique, je ne me justifie pas pour elle, mais pour présenter un dossier qui à mon avis va s'avérer bien long, vu qu'elle ne va pas lâcher l'affaire.
Comment se justifier devant la justice de proximité si on ne donne pas tous les éléments? J'ai perdu du temps à court terme, mais pas à long terme, car le courrier est blindé et pourra passer directement à mon avocate et à la justice.
Comme le disait Napoléon, on attaque sur le terrain dans lequel on excelle, et j'excelle en joutes verbales, donc une fois tous les arguments évoqués, je n'aurai plus à réexpliquer la même chose 50 fois.
Je n'ai pas écrit ce courrier pour me venger ou pour me lâcher, je prépare la suite, tactique comme je dis, en pensant à Napoléon qui refusait de répondre à la violence par la violence. J'utilise mon cerveau et je donne des arguments imparables qu'elle ne pourra pas réfuter... C'est mon choix

Ecrire 3 lignes à un juge, je doute qu'il daigne répondre à ma plainte, le courrier est prêt, je n'ai qu'à remplir le CERFA et balancer ce que j'ai écrit.
In fine, j'aurai gagné du temps, car vu la bestiole, elle ne va pas s'avouer vaincue, elle m'a montré qui elle était et je sais pertinemment qu'elle va contre-attaquer. Mais contre-attaquer sur quoi? J'ai démonté tous ces arguments un à un, elle est bloquée...
Un juge aura à faire avec ma vie personnelle si une personne m'a demandé de travailler à des heures indues alors que je suis mère de famille, c'est illégal. Je sais bien que cette personne s'en contrefiche, bien malheureusement... Par contre, d'un point de vue éthique et professionnel, ce sera difficilement contestable, cela montre le manque de respect et de professionnalisme de cette personne, que va en penser un juge ou un greffe?
Je ne suis pas qu'une traductrice et je ne suis pas d'accord sur le fait qu'on n'évoque pas sa vie lorsqu'un client vous empêche de vous occuper de vos enfants en bas-âge alors que vous êtes une mère célibataire, qu'elle a ensuite plumée, car elle ne veut pas me paye.
Pour moi c'est grave, j'étais en détresse, et mes filles aussi, cela a un impact sur la vie privée et il faut que cette personne en paie les conséquences.
Œil pour œil, dent pour dent. Tout acte entraîne des conséquences et le manque de respect d'une personne qui fait un travail pour vous est pour moi absolument intolérable, cela montre comment cette personne traite les gens. Aucune empathie, aucun respect.
Moi j'ai TOUT à faire de ma vie personnelle, je ne suis pas qu'une traductrice et elle m'a pourri le peu de temps que je pouvais passer avec mes filles et m'a empêché de dormir pendant 2 jours, ce n'est pas rien...
Et ces désagréments, je suis désolée, mais si, c'est son problème, on ne demande pas à quelqu'un de travailler la nuit que je sache!
Ma vie professionnelle, si elle est pourrie par une gestionnaire de projet absolument ahurissante de malhonnêteté est directement impactée...
Je n'ai personnellement RIEN à me reprocher, et si je suis ici c'est pour obtenir du soutien alors oui, j'ai décidé de laver mon linge sale en public, car c'est elle qui devrait avoir honte de ce qu'elle m'a infligé, pas moi...
Je n'ai pas pu rédiger le courrier le lendemain car je viens de divorcer et entamer une garde alternée, alors imaginez ce que ce problème a pu rajouter à ma vie... J'ai des jumelles de 8 ans et elle me fait perdre une journée de travail pour obtenir une traduction gratuite.
C'est inacceptable.
Enfin, c'est mon point de vue et je l'assume totalement. Les français ont l'habitude de gérer les problèmes comme ça, visiblement les anglo-saxons sont plus discrets, eh bien moi pas. Je ne vois pas en quoi cela altère mon intégrité et mon professionnalisme. Elle va assumer les conséquences de ses actes et je ne vais pas en rester là. Tant pis pour elle. Elle l'aura cherché.
Imaginez vous entendre dire que vous avez utilisé Google translate pour ne pas vous payer alors que vous avez fait du bon travail!
S'il y a deux choses que je déteste en ce bas-monde c'est la mauvaise foi et la malhonnêteté, pour moi c'est no way!
Et j'ai aussi une formation légale, donc je sais ce que je fais, merci
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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:40
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Goodness, I wonder whether they'll ever see the last paragraphs? Aug 14, 2018

Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
Ce courrier est long. Je connais le sentiment d'injustice que génère ce type de situation. On investit du temps et de l'énergie dans une traduction. On essaie toujours de bien faire et lorsque les critiques ne sont pas justifiées, pour les raisons que vous évoquez, on est outrée! Toutefois, pour être efficace, un courrier de ce type doit aller droit au but.

Yes, I agree. I appreciate how you feel, Carole, but I think it would have been a stronger message to have gone with a more standard "mise en demeure" wording, such as:

Carole Pinto wrote:
Madame,

J'ai effectué pour vous une traduction le 26 juin 2018 pour laquelle vous m'avez envoyé un bon de commande ne stipulant aucune condition de non paiement en cas de retard ou de problème de qualité ni conditions générales de vente.
Celui-ci ne comprenait que l'objet de la commande et son prix.

J'ai procédé à la traduction du texte envoyé, que je vous ai livré dans les temps, j'ai donc rempli ma mission.

Je vous prie donc de bien vouloir procéder au paiement de ma facture dans les dix jours, dès réception de ce courrier, sans quoi j'entamerai une procédure judiciaire pour le recouvrement de cette créance.

Cordialement,


 
Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2011)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Sheila please read my previous post Aug 14, 2018

You will understand why I spent so much on this letter.
I would appreciate being supported and not "criticized" please, this is support I need, not "Goodness, I wonder whether they'll ever see the last paragraphs?".
God, I need empathy, not criticism!
Anyway, thanks for reading me. I'll deal with this on my own because people obviously cannot get that I need to deal with this the way I want.


 
Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2011)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Un dernier mot Aug 14, 2018

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:40
French to English
Les tribunaux Aug 14, 2018

Carole,

I knew I was taking a risk commenting on your letter and I tried to be gentle and constructive. You are right to prepare now what might lie ahead. To facilitate things for the courts, a short letter in which one sets out the essential problem of non-payment is of course necessary. It is not unusual to express some of the anger and consequences of the incident. From my own experience of having pursued a couple of clients for non-payment, especially in a small claims procedure
... See more
Carole,

I knew I was taking a risk commenting on your letter and I tried to be gentle and constructive. You are right to prepare now what might lie ahead. To facilitate things for the courts, a short letter in which one sets out the essential problem of non-payment is of course necessary. It is not unusual to express some of the anger and consequences of the incident. From my own experience of having pursued a couple of clients for non-payment, especially in a small claims procedure, the court will look to see if there was a clearly established order for the work in exchange for payment of a specific amount, that the work was supplied and that it has not been paid for. That is the basis upon which a judgment debt will be made in your favour. The consequences of non-payment are generally not taken into consideration.

It can be helpful to present a chronological summary of the facts on a separate sheet. Note that I am not saying this is what you should do. It is what I have found helpful to produce. It was also what I found helpful when handling claims and preparing cases for court. Your initial post asked whether others had been in the same situation. As I have, I decided to share my experience and to show you that I can understand something of what you are feeling and going through. The idea is that you can see some things that may be of use to you. On a take it or leave it basis, of course. Do note that you start out by asking "What should I do?". People are obviously going to make suggestions.

In the UK, people talk about their personal lives more openly in the professional sphere; that is my experience anyway. I've spent half my life in the UK and half in France, thus finally, more of my adult and professional life in France. As a single-parent for the past 15 years and to all intents and purposes, also for a large part of the time when I was living with the father of my children, as his job meant he was absent for two-thirds of that time, I know the immediate impact of bad payers. It has always irritated me, often put me in the s*** and more often than not, also offended me, whatever the reason for being late. They had ordered some work, I had done it and they should pay for it.

I have had employment in the UK and in France. I have lectured in France as a "vacataire", something I thought was a good idea when I was setting up in translation. The idea was that a salary would bring in some regular money as the translation business took time to get up and running. In fact, it was the work at the uni that became extremely irritating as I waited 6 months to be paid half of what I should have had so much earlier. In the second year of that job, I worked more than a year before I was paid. The third and last year, with the help of a lawyer, I was paid more or less on time, or at least at regular (long) intervals. I should have stopped in the second year. So, my experience of bad payers is unfortunately quite extensive. I dropped the uni as they were the worst payers of all! I was getting fairly regular translation work by then and I wanted to concentrate my energy where it was most useful and be able to chase bad payers immediately.

I found that the bigger the client, the less able it seemed to meet deadlines for payment, more often than not due to slow internal procedures rather than bad faith. But promises don't pay the rent, nor do they put food on the table. In the end, after having pulled out all the stops to get paid by one client and having seen two clients go bankrupt owing me money, I took a break as I was sick of it. I got a job with a salary and took time to work out a "comeback" plan. I sought advice from people I knew who seemed to have fewer cash flow problems. I discovered that they too had problems of the same sort, but that they handled them in a much more detached way and were much more efficient at getting the money in on time. I also realized that I knew how to do it but that I simply hadn't been strict enough in applying what I knew. So when I started up again, I was more choosy with my clients. If the former bad payers came back, I replied that I no longer wanted to work with them as they were bad clients. I set up fairly standard procedures and simply applied them more rigorously. If I am faced with a late-paying client these days, I simply go into automatic pilot and it works so much better at getting the money in.

My other main point is that in my albeit limited experience of the courts in the UK and in France, I never cease to be amazed by the number of mistakes that are made by professional legal people in the documents they read and in the documents they draft. I'm speaking of my professional experience in civil litigation, professional indemnity work and cargo claims. I continue to see the same phenomenon as a translator of legal documents. On a personal level, I shudder when I think of the stupid mistakes made in the paperwork of my own divorce by the lawyers on both sides, not having always picked out the salient points. In hindsight, I did not make their task easy, as there was a lot of emotion in there too. In a more recent and related hearing, again, so much had been misread or hardly read at all. This time round I was all the wiser and more efficient in my writing. The short documents seemed to have caused fewer problems of digestion.

Obviously, you handle this as you want; it's your business. You did, however, ask for suggestions as to what you might do and based on experience. That's what I thought I was doing and am sorry if I have offended you in any way. Nothing could have been further from my intention.

P.S. I realized I'd written in French, whereas this is not the French forum. So I've just redone this in English.

[Edited at 2018-08-14 20:59 GMT]
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Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2011)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry Nikki Aug 15, 2018

Dear Nikki,

I'm in no way being judgy or aggressive and I really appreciate your posts, don't worry about that.
I can't believe you've been treated like that! It's only happened twice to me, and it was easier to deal with it in France as a friend who works in the legal field wrote a letter to my client and they paid me straight away when I told them they would pay a HUGE fine and risked being sentenced to jail for fraud (it's true, and I can even forward you that letter, which
... See more
Dear Nikki,

I'm in no way being judgy or aggressive and I really appreciate your posts, don't worry about that.
I can't believe you've been treated like that! It's only happened twice to me, and it was easier to deal with it in France as a friend who works in the legal field wrote a letter to my client and they paid me straight away when I told them they would pay a HUGE fine and risked being sentenced to jail for fraud (it's true, and I can even forward you that letter, which can always prove to be useful). My problem here is that this person lives in Switzerland and that the French laws don't apply to this situation, she doesn't even live in the EU, which makes it even harder to deal with, but it doesn't mean there aren't any ways to get the money she owes me.
It's just gonna take time, and time is money, I'd rather be working than dealing with this situation, but I won't let a bad payer do this to me. No way.
I hate injustice and dishonesty, so I'm ready to go as far as I can, but gosh, it's time-consuming and stressul! I would NEVER do that to anyone! If I was a PM and if I wasn't happy with a person's work, I would simply stop working with them. I wouldn't slag them and refuse to pay them, it's beyond outrageous!

Your story is horrifying, I can't believe you've been through so much stress, it's unbelievable. I've dealt with late payers, but hardly non-payers! And ProZ refuses me to post my review on this person. Why? She's being dishonest in saying the quality of my work was bad, which is questionable, and I can't say she's refusing to pay me when she has no right to do so?

Of courses lawyers, judges and tribubals are useless, all they do is take your money and lie. I've been there many times, so my trust in the legal system is very limited, but what can I do? I can't go to Switzerland and threaten her with a "plastic gun" in order to get my money right?

I'm sorry if I was a bit blunt, but I never meant to be agressive, it's just that I'm at the end of my tether. It's the second post that drove me mental, not yours. I just said gently that I didn't agree with you, but still appreciated your help and still do, I hope you understand that, you're very sweet.

I know I should act in a more detached way, but I'm under so much stress that it's basically impossible. And I'm just like you, I've decided to drop the sh*tty clients and late payers, I don't have anymore time to waste, because as you said, promises don't pay your rent nor do they put food on your table. I'm respectful with my clients and I expect the same from them, otherwise it's a dealbreaker. Full stop. I can't afford working for free as I have two little girls to look after and being stressed about money is not an easy situation when you're a single mum, which is why I went ballistic (at my client, not you, obviously).

As for legal documents and lawyers, God, they are useless. My ex's lawyer sent us 8 drafts of our divorce convention and there were so many mistakes and spelling mistakes it was apalling. When you think they spend over 6 years studying law and that they earn so much money, the least they could do is read their documents and have the respect to use a spellchecker. But they probably ask a 6-year-old trainee to do it for them (well I hope so, otherwise it's really scary). My new partner told me that all lawyers do is lie all day to make sure their clients win, that there is no justice. I couldn't believe my ears. People write false testimonies and take the risk of going to jail but they actually win, because that's the way it works. Honesty and integrety seem to be underrated, which is too bad, because I was brought up to respect people and I expected the same from them. I was obviously a fool.
So I'm also going through the same ordeal with my divorce as I was ripped off all my money, which is why I'm so stressed out.

So Nikki, please accept my apologies if I was a bit blunt but I never felt offended by your posts and never ever meant to be agressive or offend you. I just said that I didn't agree. It's the "Goodness, I wonder whether they'll ever see the last paragraphs?" post that drove me mental, I found it very judgy and disrespectful, when all I needed was support, which you gave me, so don't take what I said personally, it wasn't aimed at you. But still, I appreciate the fact that you wrote me back and didn't do it in an agressive way. It would have hurt me as much as the "Goodness" post.
You've been lovely the whole way through and I really appreciate, thank you Nikki, you're a good person and I'm glad I 'met' you.
Have a lovely day!
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ibz
ibz  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:40
Member (2007)
English to German
+ ...
Procedure Aug 15, 2018

Dear Carole,
I don't want to upset you but I have to say that I agree with Nikki and Sheila: Even though it's quite understandable that you're outraged, it doesn't help you in any way to be too emotional. At this stage of your dispute, it also doesn't make any sense to send your client such a long letter. She obviously doesn't want to see your point of view and she won't change her attitude. Much better just going forward and been as cool about it as possible.
As to the procedure in
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Dear Carole,
I don't want to upset you but I have to say that I agree with Nikki and Sheila: Even though it's quite understandable that you're outraged, it doesn't help you in any way to be too emotional. At this stage of your dispute, it also doesn't make any sense to send your client such a long letter. She obviously doesn't want to see your point of view and she won't change her attitude. Much better just going forward and been as cool about it as possible.
As to the procedure in Switzerland: It's not that complicated and you can even fill in the necessary form online (see link I posted in July: https://www.e-service.admin.ch/eschkg/cms/content/betreibung/betreibung_einleiten_fr).
All the best,
Irene
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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:40
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Exasperation is creeping in, I'm afraid Aug 15, 2018

Carole Pinto wrote:
I would appreciate being supported and not "criticized" please, this is support I need, not "Goodness, I wonder whether they'll ever see the last paragraphs?".
God, I need empathy, not criticism!
Anyway, thanks for reading me. I'll deal with this on my own because people obviously cannot get that I need to deal with this the way I want.

You came here, three pages ago, asking this in your initial post:
Have you ever been in such a situation? What should I do?

Well, I've sued a client in the French courts and I've gone partway through the EU procedure too. Nikki has also used the courts in France. We've both spent considerable time in France as adults, and brought up kids there (although I had the support of my husband during the 15 years I was there, with our son going through the entire school system). And others who have experience and knowledge have provided useful input to the discussion. I haven't checked every single post but I think there was unanimous agreement that you should drop the personal aspects from your complaint to your client and keep to the salient points of a business deal gone wrong. As Nikki experienced: "short documents seemed to have caused fewer problems of digestion". That applies to all parties concerned - your client and the courts: you did a translation; the client accused you of poor work; you've defended yourself; you're demanding payment; your next step (if she doesn't pay) will be to see her in court.

You did get empathy from me and everyone else. But you really don't want to listen to advice after all, do you? As you say above, you want to do it the way you want. That's fine - your prerogative. I certainly don't expect everyone to follow my own advice to the letter . But I'm afraid I do find your negative response to every suggestion made here rather exasperating and, unfortunately, I let that exasperation show. I apologise for that.


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:40
French to English
To sum up... Aug 15, 2018

Carole,

I was not offended by your comments, just disappointed that I had not been able to get the message across effectively. To describe my experiences as "horrifying" is exaggerated. Frustrating certainly and yes, stressful at times, but not all of the time. I am not interested in why a client is failing to pay me as agreed. I do not expect my client to be interested in the consequences of non-payment for me. I assume the client knows. In business, late- or non-payment is a total
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Carole,

I was not offended by your comments, just disappointed that I had not been able to get the message across effectively. To describe my experiences as "horrifying" is exaggerated. Frustrating certainly and yes, stressful at times, but not all of the time. I am not interested in why a client is failing to pay me as agreed. I do not expect my client to be interested in the consequences of non-payment for me. I assume the client knows. In business, late- or non-payment is a total lack of business etiquette and it is easy to feel totally disrespected. Keeping calm and business-like enables us to react rationally. Negative emotion sends rationale out the window. Faced with late- or non-payment, I want to be paid quickly so I need to be rational and to think clearly. The emotion is for when I've put the phone down.

I posted my experiences from both sides of the bar to illustrate what I had learnt. (You don't need to forward the letter, as you say it was a matter of fraud. Not all instances of late- or non-payment are fraudulent. In the event of fraud, I would seek the services of a lawyer. Thank you all the same). I do not agree that lawyers and courts are useless, by the way. Some are better than others, for sure, but we need them. Not all of them are people I would choose to be friends with, but if I'm consulting a lawyer, I'm not looking for a friend, but a professional who knows his job and who will provide an efficient service in exchange for payment.

Getting paid means getting hold of the right information from formal up-to-date sources and then taking the appropriate action. A successful claim for payment will be based on being able to show the presence of an agreement to do a particular job for a particular price and that each party had to respect time limits, for delivery on one side and for payment on the other.


[Edited at 2018-08-15 20:27 GMT]
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Adam Warren
Deborah do Carmo
 
Adam Warren
Adam Warren  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2005)
French to English
Brevity is essential Aug 16, 2018

I agree with Nikki, Irene and Sheila: to win your case, you must make your point succinctly. The inconvenience and suffering can be entered as a subordinate claim, again very succintly. The admirable French term "synthétiser" is wholly applicable to this aspect of the proceedings. In common with the three gennerous-spirited ladies aforementioned, I may sound drily critical, but I hope your justified determination will win you your action.

With kind regards,

Adam Warren
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I agree with Nikki, Irene and Sheila: to win your case, you must make your point succinctly. The inconvenience and suffering can be entered as a subordinate claim, again very succintly. The admirable French term "synthétiser" is wholly applicable to this aspect of the proceedings. In common with the three gennerous-spirited ladies aforementioned, I may sound drily critical, but I hope your justified determination will win you your action.

With kind regards,

Adam Warren (IanDhu - Translator 41189)
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Carole Pinto
 
Carole Pinto
Carole Pinto
France
Local time: 10:40
Member (2011)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all for your advice and sorry Aug 16, 2018

Please accept my apologies if I seemed a bit blunt.
I did ask for advice about the procedure, not the letter I sent, which is why I was exasperated, because I did it my way and never asked anyone's opinion regarding that letter.
Anyhow, I do respect your points of view and I apologize if I seemed a bit negative, it's just that this situation is very stressful and it adds up to all the other problems I have to deal with.

You have all my respect and I admit being a bit ove
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Please accept my apologies if I seemed a bit blunt.
I did ask for advice about the procedure, not the letter I sent, which is why I was exasperated, because I did it my way and never asked anyone's opinion regarding that letter.
Anyhow, I do respect your points of view and I apologize if I seemed a bit negative, it's just that this situation is very stressful and it adds up to all the other problems I have to deal with.

You have all my respect and I admit being a bit over the top sometimes, but I do appreciate all the time and energy you spent on helping me and I am very grateful for that.

Once again, thank you all, all your advices were very helpful and your support helped me a lot.
And of course please accept my apologies, I shouldn't have responded the way I did, but stress made me say things I shouldn't have.
I'm mad at this person, and not you, obviously, because you took the time to help me.
Thank you.
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Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:40
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Public forum Aug 16, 2018

Hi Carole,
I do not speak French so I can't read the letter you posted, but I was wondering if you were aware that ProZ forums are public, which means they can be read by anyone, even people who are not logged in, and posts are indexed by Google (preserved in "public digital memory").


Nikki Scott-Despaigne
 
B D Finch
B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:40
French to English
+ ...
Time and money! Aug 16, 2018

Hi Carole,

I really sympathise with your anger over this, but can't help noticing that the time you have spent writing about it on this forum and taking steps to get paid probably comes to at least as much as the time spent on the job you haven't been paid for. You also write that you have spent at least one sleepless night.

I suggest that you try to minimise your own stress over this, but do what you can to spread the word about your experience with this person/agency
... See more
Hi Carole,

I really sympathise with your anger over this, but can't help noticing that the time you have spent writing about it on this forum and taking steps to get paid probably comes to at least as much as the time spent on the job you haven't been paid for. You also write that you have spent at least one sleepless night.

I suggest that you try to minimise your own stress over this, but do what you can to spread the word about your experience with this person/agency so that others don't fall victim to them as you have. As the ProZ.com Blue Board won't provide an outlet for this (you can't even name them on this forum), I suggest that you use one of the other forums available, e.g. http://translationethics.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#.VFDwPxaK1cC, the LinkedIn groups: Black Sheep (Translation Companies With Payment Issues), Unacceptable Translation Rates Naming and Shaming Group.

Some years ago, I had a very bad experience with a French lawyer. I asked her to draft an agreement for me and, not only did she make a mess of it, getting key facts wrong, but she also provided an "English translation" of the agreement, in spite of the fact that I hadn't asked for her to do so, she knew very well that I was a translator, and her knowledge of English was primary school level. She then charged over double what she had quoted to me including the time she claimed to have spent on her "translation". I objected, wrote telling her that her document was unusable and that I had not asked her to provide an English translation, that she was not competent to do so and that what she had produced was neither accurate nor correct English. She insisted on claiming her money.

I complained to the bâtonnier who, it turned out, was a friend of hers and supported her claim. So, I took it further and made a complaint to the first President of the Court of Appeal in Toulouse. All I got out of that, was sitting through a number of other complaints about lawyers and seeing the arrogant and dismissive way that the first President treated all of the complainants, which was exactly how she treated me. The lawyer I was complaining about didn't even bother to attend, so I didn't even have the satisfaction of making her spend time on the hearing.

I considered the option of turning up at the woman's office with a bag containing her payment in €0.10 coins and letting any clients in her office know why I was there, but decided that I had wasted enough time on the matter and just wrote her a cheque.


[Edited at 2018-08-16 10:19 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-08-16 10:20 GMT]
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Nikki Scott-Despaigne
 
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Dispute with an agency which refuses to pay my invoice (France > Switzerland)







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