question about "Discussion" feature in Kudoz questions
Thread poster: Alicja Jaczewska
Alicja Jaczewska
Alicja Jaczewska  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 11:36
English to Polish
+ ...
Apr 21, 2020

Hi,
sorry, this may be something obvious, but I can't find an explanation myself:
why do people provide answers for Kudoz questions in the discussion, and not as an answer via "propose a translation"?
I'm asking, because I see some questions with multiple comments and 0 answers, yet when I open them the right answer (imo) is provided in the discussion. Or - in other questions - someone provides a correct answer in the discussion, and someone else uses it to "propose a translat
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Hi,
sorry, this may be something obvious, but I can't find an explanation myself:
why do people provide answers for Kudoz questions in the discussion, and not as an answer via "propose a translation"?
I'm asking, because I see some questions with multiple comments and 0 answers, yet when I open them the right answer (imo) is provided in the discussion. Or - in other questions - someone provides a correct answer in the discussion, and someone else uses it to "propose a translation". Is this ok? Not in violation of "kudoz etiquette"?
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Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 06:36
Romanian to English
+ ...
One reason, Apr 22, 2020

Since about 10 years ago, I decided to help my colleague by the ways of Discussion. At that time, I noticed a fierce chase for points, with a lot of non-founded „Disagrees” and mean comments. For that reason, proving that I am not interested in obtaining any points, I started contributing by posting on Discussion and I do not mind at all if somebody else takes my answer and posts it.

lee


Christopher Schröder
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Platary (X)
Thomas T. Frost
Jessica Noyes
Andy Watkinson
writeaway
 
Josephine Cassar
Josephine Cassar  Identity Verified
Malta
Local time: 11:36
Member (2012)
English to Maltese
+ ...
I use it Apr 22, 2020

Alicja Jaczewska wrote:

Hi,
sorry, this may be something obvious, but I can't find an explanation myself:
why do people provide answers for Kudoz questions in the discussion, and not as an answer via "propose a translation"?
I'm asking, because I see some questions with multiple comments and 0 answers, yet when I open them the right answer (imo) is provided in the discussion. Or - in other questions - someone provides a correct answer in the discussion, and someone else uses it to "propose a translation". Is this ok? Not in violation of "kudoz etiquette"?

I use it when there isn't enough context so any answer I might provide will be just a wild guess so it might be right off the mark.


Elena Doroshenko
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Thomas T. Frost
expressisverbis
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tom in London
 
Alicja Jaczewska
Alicja Jaczewska  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 11:36
English to Polish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you! Apr 22, 2020

Thank you for clarifying this for me I was away from proz for too long, things have changed

 
Heinrich Pesch
Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 12:36
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Not allowed to answer Apr 22, 2020

Last week I noticed some covid-19-related kudoz-entries. As I am not a specialist for health related things (my profile does not have it) I could only entry a discussion. Up till now no answer has been entered.

Yolanda Broad
neilmac
 
ahartje
ahartje
Portugal
Local time: 10:36
Member (2006)
German to Portuguese
+ ...
Sometimes Apr 22, 2020

Not everybody is fighting for Kudoz points, so if the answer to a question looks to be too obvious (wrong question asked?), context is missing or a well known colleague is asking, a contribution in the discussion field seems the most appropriate.
A discussion about the behaviour of translators, who copy already given proposals later on, could take some time...


Liviu-Lee Roth
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Platary (X)
Andy Watkinson
Tina Vonhof (X)
mk_lab
Philip Lees
 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:36
Danish to English
+ ...
Behaviour and proposals under Discussion Apr 22, 2020

ahartje wrote:

A discussion about the behaviour of translators, who copy already given proposals later on, could take some time...


That's a tricky situation because if someone has proposed the right answer in the discussion and it is considered ethically wrong for anyone else to formally propose that answer as an answer, then the Kudoz question would remain forever blocked unless the person who wrote the answer in the discussion formally proposes it. This is not how the system is supposed to work and it is not helpful for the Asker. It is also not helpful for people who later look up the answers proposed if the proposals are scattered around the discussion – because some bullies make it unpleasant to use the answer fields and functions.

I don't like to 'steal' a suggestion from the discussion and propose it, but on the other hand, the person who wrote it in the discussion is free to propose it as a formal answer as long as nobody else has done it, so it must be considered fair game until it has been formally proposed (except perhaps in a few cases where not everybody is allowed to propose answers). Maybe the person who wrote it in the discussion doesn't feel certain enough to propose it. Proposing it as a formal answer carries a certain risk of being voted down or considered incompetent, while loosely proposing something in the discussion is less risky. So the person who copies something from the discussion takes on that risk.

What the bullies are concerned, I report them to site support when there is a clear violation of the Kudoz rules. This could be seen as ‘schoolmaster’ behaviour, but it is necessary to either get rid of them or make them stop harassing others for their own petty points benefit. Using the discussion for proposals to avoid the bullies is like paying protection money to a mafia.


expressisverbis
Hedwig Spitzer (X)
Michele Fauble
Victoria Britten
 
ahartje
ahartje
Portugal
Local time: 10:36
Member (2006)
German to Portuguese
+ ...
Hmm... Apr 22, 2020

The discussion field is an important part of Kudoz and IMHO shown proposals in this area are intended to be food for thought, just to go a step forward (in the right direction?) or to ask for some more context. In fact, I never faced any contribution in the discussion/answer field as a risky act, which certainly does not block any question, because the asker may contact the proposing colleague to enter her/his suggestion as valid response, unblocking any possibly existing locking device.
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The discussion field is an important part of Kudoz and IMHO shown proposals in this area are intended to be food for thought, just to go a step forward (in the right direction?) or to ask for some more context. In fact, I never faced any contribution in the discussion/answer field as a risky act, which certainly does not block any question, because the asker may contact the proposing colleague to enter her/his suggestion as valid response, unblocking any possibly existing locking device.

Therefore, there is no shady reason to (mis-)use/copy proposals/answers/replys entered by colleagues unless somebody does not know the right answer, but is up to hunt Kudoz points.
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Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:36
Danish to English
+ ...
Just play by the rules Apr 22, 2020

ahartje wrote:

In fact, I never faced any contribution in the discussion/answer field as a risky act, which certainly does not block any question, because the asker may contact the proposing colleague to enter her/his suggestion as valid response, unblocking any possibly existing locking device.

Therefore, there is no shady reason to (mis-)use/copy proposals/answers/replys entered by colleagues unless somebody does not know the right answer, but is up to hunt Kudoz points.


This is a good example of how things can begin to go wrong, i.e. when members begin to make up their own personal rules for how they think others should use a system, based on what they consider ethical or right or wrong.

The Kudoz rules are clearly described.

The Asker may certainly contact a colleague to ask that colleague to enter their discussion suggestion as an answer, but this could, in the extreme, be seen as a violation of Kudoz rule 3.6, which is titled 'No attempt may be made to influence others' decisions.'

Also, there is no requirement in the rules for the Asker to ask anyone to suggest an answer.

And there is no rule that in any way prevents anyone from using any discussion content in an answer. There is nothing 'shady' about that and it is not 'misuse' according to the rules.

I myself don’t like simply to grab a proposal from the discussion and propose it, but I have no basis in the rules for criticising anyone who does or for considering their behaviour ‘shady’. The member who writes a possible answer in the discussion has a very effective way to prevent others from using such an answer, and that is to propose it as an answer before anyone else does. If they don’t, they can’t reasonably prevent others from doing so. That’s the rules.

Rule number 1 for a community to work is that everybody abides by the rules and abstains from criticising others for violating rules that don’t exist. If everybody wants to apply their personal ‘rules’, things can quickly go downhill. If a rule seems unfair, it can be agreed to change it or not.

[Edited at 2020-04-22 11:19 GMT]


expressisverbis
Yolanda Broad
Michele Fauble
 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:36
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Thomas Apr 22, 2020

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I don't like to 'steal' a suggestion from the discussion and propose it...


Not taking a correct answer from the discussion and proposing it yourself appears to be an unwritten rule, and it makes sense that participants would feel that way. And fellow-participants may not be aware of the consequences of not having a formally proposed answer. I have tried to think of ways that one can propose such correct answers without giving the impression that you're stealing, but the fact is that unless you can communicate to the asker not to give you points, you can't prevent yourself from getting points for the answer. Even if you write in your description that you give credit to the person who wrote it in the discussion, you're still going to get the points.

What would help for this (and for people who avoid proposing answers because they don't want to seem like they're just there for points), is if the proposer could indicate that he doesn't want the points, e.g. a check a box saying "Refuse points" or "I don't want points for my answer" when he makes his proposal. What do you think of that?


Thomas T. Frost
Yolanda Broad
Liviu-Lee Roth
expressisverbis
Robert Carter
Emily Gilby
 
neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 11:36
Spanish to English
+ ...
My 2 cents Apr 28, 2020

Sometimes, when the asker (misguidedly or otherwise) limits the question to paying members only, or colleagues announcing speciality in the query category, I can't help myself and still want to throw my hat into the ring. So, I usually make a comment or suggestion in the discussion section, as I am unable to post an answer or agree with solutions posted by others.

 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
I do this a lot Apr 28, 2020

I only make suggestions in the discussion these days.

Partly because I’m just too cool to go trawling for points.

Partly because I can’t be arsed to come up with references.

Partly because I’m too childish to keep my cool when some idiot rejects my infinite wisdom.


expressisverbis
Liviu-Lee Roth
 


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question about "Discussion" feature in Kudoz questions






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