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Removal of Negative Feedback Entry on BB due to Ambiguity of TimeFrame regarding Complaints
Thread poster: Yasutomo Kanazawa
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:25
French to English
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In memoriam
Not allowed! Oct 9, 2017

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Samuel Murray wrote:

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I haven't heard from them or received the re-translated version to support their claim.


Well, I'm not sure what the BB rules say, but if I were you, I'd try to rate them again. Give them a "1", and don't say anything in the comments except "I had a very negative experience with this client".


"Please contact me for information"


Angie, as has already been said here, Proz won't allow BB entries saying "please contact me". If you put something like that in the comments box, your entry won't be admitted. Why? Never explained.
The best way is simply to give a low score with no comment. Truly interested viewers can contact you through your Proz profle ithout being specifically asked to do so.


 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:25
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What is going on? Oct 9, 2017

We haven't heard from site staff since 28 September, and we still haven't been given a clear definition of what "timely" and "shortly" mean.

What is going on?


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:25
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English to Afrikaans
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@Angie Oct 9, 2017

Angie Garbarino wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I haven't heard from them or received the re-translated version to support their claim.

Well, I'm not sure what the BB rules say, but if I were you, I'd try to rate them again. Give them a "1", and don't say anything in the comments except "I had a very negative experience with this client".

Or: "Please contact me for information"


No, you're not allowed to say that. But anyone may contact anyone who made an entry on the Blue Board anyway (although only paid members can see the names of those who made entries).


 
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
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TOPIC STARTER
Having my fingers crossed Oct 10, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I haven't heard from them or received the re-translated version to support their claim.


Well, I'm not sure what the BB rules say, but if I were you, I'd try to rate them again. Give them a "1", and don't say anything in the comments except "I had a very negative experience with this client".


For the second time, I made an entry with a low score without any comments.
Let's see what happens.

Edited to add that my negative entry for this particular outsourcer has been approved.
Thanks for the tip, Samuel.



[Edited at 2017-10-10 08:06 GMT]


 
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
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TOPIC STARTER
Contact me personally Oct 10, 2017

if you want to know the name of the outsourcer in question.

 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:25
Danish to English
+ ...
"Shortly" is whatever Proz staff want it to mean at any given time Oct 12, 2017

I had reopened a support ticket about getting a definition of "shortly", but no clear answer is forthcoming. This is from the latest reply from support:


As for "How long should I wait after delivering work before I can post feedback without any risk of a bogus complaint taking down the feedback?", for non-payment reports you can make a non-payment entry for an outsourcer if the payment deadline has already been reached, and the work has been delivered in full, on ... See more
I had reopened a support ticket about getting a definition of "shortly", but no clear answer is forthcoming. This is from the latest reply from support:


As for "How long should I wait after delivering work before I can post feedback without any risk of a bogus complaint taking down the feedback?", for non-payment reports you can make a non-payment entry for an outsourcer if the payment deadline has already been reached, and the work has been delivered in full, on time and without quality complaint. If any quality issue is raised by the outsourcer after receiving the entry the issue will be investigated and evidence will be requested from both parties.


As it is not explained in any rule or warning before posting Blue Board feedback what "shortly" means, and which criteria Proz staff use to determine whether or not to delete feedback, it must be expected that some translators fall in this trap and have their feedback removed by bogus complaints, as Proz is clearly willingly playing the game of shady outsourcers by refusing to state clear rules for this.

I'm not in any way accusing Proz staff of deliberately favouring shady outsourcers when deciding, but the lack of clarity can trick the translator into a situation where a bogus complaint can lead to feedback being removed.

But clearly such lack of quality is not acceptable. It makes the whole process look like a kangaroo court.

As others have hinted, we therefore need to take the Blue Board with a huge grain of salt. If there is just the slightest indication of problems with an outsourcer, we need to bear in mind that it is possible that Proz has removed a number of negative entries.

The rules have been written in a way that can be gamed by shady outsourcers. Isn’t it about time that something is done to better prevent that abusive complaints take feedback down?
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:25
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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I'm not dissatisfied with the current procedure Oct 12, 2017

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
If there is just the slightest indication of problems with an outsourcer, we need to bear in mind that it is possible that Proz has removed a number of negative entries. ... The rules have been written in a way that can be gamed by shady outsourcers. Isn’t it about time that something is done to better prevent that abusive complaints take feedback down?


I'm not dissatisfied with the current system. It is good that outsourcers are allowed to query bad ratings. The current system requires that both the translator and outsourcer state their case, and the ProZ.com staff makes a decision based on that. In this case, the outsourcer made a better case than the translator did. We don't know what the outsourcer said (we only know what the translator said), but on the balance of things the ProZ.com staff decided in favour of the outsourcer this time. The fact that staff sometimes rule in favour of an outsourcer does not mean that the system is broken.

I [still] agree, with many others here, that three weeks into a four week payment term is not "shortly".


 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:25
Danish to English
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Proz does not 'hear the case' Oct 12, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:

I'm not dissatisfied with the current system. It is good that outsourcers are allowed to query bad ratings. The current system requires that both the translator and outsourcer state their case, and the ProZ.com staff makes a decision based on that. In this case, the outsourcer made a better case than the translator did. We don't know what the outsourcer said (we only know what the translator said), but on the balance of things the ProZ.com staff decided in favour of the outsourcer this time. The fact that staff sometimes rule in favour of an outsourcer does not mean that the system is broken.

I [still] agree, with many others here, that three weeks into a four week payment term is not "shortly".


What Proz staff have explained is that they do not evaluate the quality of the work provided, and they do not evaluate how reasonable or not a complaint is, or even demand a motivation for the complaint; they only judge if they think the complaint is "timely", based on whichever criteria they like – criteria not stated anywhere in the rules.

What we need is a clear and defined deadline for complaints, after which they will not be taken into account for Blue Board purposes. If translators and outsourcers know the deadline is two months, for example, then the translator who had a bad experience can wait two months before posting feedback, and the outsourcer has a reasonable time to complain about bad quality. But because Proz keeps it secret what "shortly after" means, some translators fall in the trap of posting feedback too quickly.

Of course an outsourcer should be entitled to "query" a bad rating. There are bad players on both sides. The trouble is that Proz refuse to say what "timely" and "shortly after" mean, so the system can be abused to take down legitimate bad feedback.

I'm not basing anything on one case alone, and I don't know the arguments in that case. I'm saying the rules are wide open to abuse because they are unclear.

The only people who have anything to gain from this lack of clarity are bad outsourcers. Why are Proz helping them?


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:25
Member (2007)
English
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Two points Oct 13, 2017

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The only people who have anything to gain from this lack of clarity are bad outsourcers. Why are Proz helping them?

One thing we need to bear in mind is that not all the jobs for which BB entries are made are negotiated here on ProZ.com. Maybe the outsourcer has absolutely no idea about the BB and its rules - clear or not. And direct clients (companies or private individuals) often have no way to check quality. They don't understand both languages so all they can do is trust, until maybe they get negative feedback from their own sources. Their quality complaints are likely to be delayed, without them in any way being "bad outsourcers".

What Proz staff have explained is that they do not evaluate the quality of the work provided, and they do not evaluate how reasonable or not a complaint is, or even demand a motivation for the complaint

Quality evaluation - of the hundreds of possible language pair combinations offered - would be a mammoth task. That would have to be part of a paid arbitration service, and I don't think that's in place yet (if it ever will be). It doesn't surprise me that ProZ.com are limiting themselves to verifying the existence and the date of a quality complaint.


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:25
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French to Italian
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double deleting Oct 13, 2017



[Edited at 2017-10-13 16:03 GMT]


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:25
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French to Italian
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Mine was allowed Oct 13, 2017

[quote]Samuel Murray wrote:

[quote]Angie Garbarino wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
No, you're not allowed to say that. But anyone may contact anyone who made an entry on the Blue Board anyway (although only paid members can see the names of those who made entries).


And it is there... visible. This is why I suggested.

PS. Please see the screen shot (name of outourcer is not visible)

Capture2

[Edited at 2017-10-13 16:00 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-10-13 16:04 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-10-13 16:05 GMT]


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:25
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
It used to be allowed, but not any more Oct 13, 2017

Like you, Angie, about four years ago I left "Please contact me for details" in the BB comments box of an agency and my comment was not deleted and remains there for all to see.
About a year ago, however, I tried to do the same for another outsourcer and my entry was refused. The only way I could express my opinion concerning the agency was to enter a low score and leave the comments box empty. Then, my entry was allowed.
I wish Proz would explain why "please contact me" is no longer
... See more
Like you, Angie, about four years ago I left "Please contact me for details" in the BB comments box of an agency and my comment was not deleted and remains there for all to see.
About a year ago, however, I tried to do the same for another outsourcer and my entry was refused. The only way I could express my opinion concerning the agency was to enter a low score and leave the comments box empty. Then, my entry was allowed.
I wish Proz would explain why "please contact me" is no longer allowed.
So far, no explanation is forthcoming.
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Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 19:25
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
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TOPIC STARTER
Once again Oct 18, 2017

Samuel Murray wrote:

Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I haven't heard from them or received the re-translated version to support their claim.


Well, I'm not sure what the BB rules say, but if I were you, I'd try to rate them again. Give them a "1", and don't say anything in the comments except "I had a very negative experience with this client".


Proz has removed my negative feedback for this outsourcer due to site rule https://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/2#2 (complaint shortly after delivery). It was vetted, approved, but now they've removed it again.

I didn't enter any comments like you said but just gave them a "1", but this didn't work either.


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:25
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
A shocking ... Oct 18, 2017

... and disappointing outcome, Yasutomo. As I've said here before, the removal of such entries downgrades the Blue Board and helps to defeat its purpose which, I thought, was to guide translators and help them decide whether or not to accept work from an agency.
How many negative entries has Proz removed in this way? Shame.
From JF, one of the "usual old folks" so dear to the heart of Louis XIV?


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:25
Member
English to Italian
Recent change... Oct 18, 2017

Jenny Forbes wrote:

Like you, Angie, about four years ago I left "Please contact me for details" in the BB comments box of an agency and my comment was not deleted and remains there for all to see.
About a year ago, however, I tried to do the same for another outsourcer and my entry was refused. The only way I could express my opinion concerning the agency was to enter a low score and leave the comments box empty. Then, my entry was allowed.
I wish Proz would explain why "please contact me" is no longer allowed.
So far, no explanation is forthcoming.


It seems they changed this about one year ago, adding this inconspicuous line to the BB FAQ: 'Comments requesting that other users contact you for further details about your experience with a particular company are also generally not permitted.'

After this thread (I guess) they added an entire subparagraph about that:

3.1 [actually 1.3.1] - Why is a comment simply saying "contact me privately for further details" not allowed?

This comment does not provide any helpful information to other translators and undermines the point of the Blue Board. Translators are busy, if they went to a Blue Board record and every comment merely said "Contact me privately for further details." there would be no point in having the comment section at all.

Site members can contact the translator who gave an entry for more details by clicking the "Email translator" icon on the entry itself.
http://www.proz.com/faq/blue_board_outsourcer_database_/blue_board:_general.html#what_are_the_conditions_for_making_an_entry_concerning_your_likelihood_of_working_again_with_an_outsourcer_


That doesn't really look like a plausible explanation to me, nor a reason to arbitrarily remove a comment about a bad work experience a translator/interpreter had with an outsourcer, also considering that empty ratings seem to be allowed, and those too do 'not provide any helpful information to other translators'. Besides, a user may or may not be willing to provide additional information about a rating they left to whomever may be asking them directly (because 'translators are busy', right?), so stating that instead of leaving an empty comment does seem 'helpful information' to me...

I've read dozens of threads by users lamenting how their comments were removed (if and when they are aware of that happening), sometimes saying they had to leave an empty comment in order for it to be approved or not removed, so, on one hand ProZ says comments must be helpful, but on the other seems to be a little too "trigger happy" and inconsistent when it comes to removing comments that are "too helpful" in warning other users' about bad experiences with outsourcers.

If ProZ is really worried about the BB "helpfulness", perhaps they should consider that continuing to add "rules" that curtail users' ability to leave (negative) comments does nothing to improve it, nor its reliability and truthfulness, at all...


 
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Removal of Negative Feedback Entry on BB due to Ambiguity of TimeFrame regarding Complaints







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