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Aug 30, 2019 13:46
4 yrs ago
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French term

à récupérer d’ici fin

French to English Law/Patents Management UK English
This could also be considered a FR>FR question.

Perhaps I'm looking at this back to front, but it seems to me that the year in which hours have been worked cannot be later than another year in which time off in lieu is taken for those hours worked. However, I am somewhat mystified by what is referred to by "ici" in "d'ici fin".

"Il est toutefois prévu la possibilité d’un report d'une semaine sur l'autre dans la limite d'un cumul maximum de 20 heures par année de référence à récupérer d’ici fin à la fin de l'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées"
Proposed translations (English)
4 days off in lieu must be taken before the end of the year in which overtime has been worked
4 +6 to be recovered by the end of the year
3 +1 to be recouped between now and the year-end, carried back to the end of the year

Discussion

B D Finch (asker) Sep 2, 2019:
Typo Selon le client, il s’agit d’une erreur de frappe. « d’ici à la fin de l’année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées »
Daryo Sep 1, 2019:
@ B D Finch That changes only the definition of the "year" within which the combined "overtime/days off" must happen. It's not necessarily the calendar year, it could be any agreed one year period - which then becomes the agreed "reference year".

It doesn't change the meaning of the clause: you can accumulate up to 20 hours of overtime during a "reference year" and the only compensation you can expect is to take time off in lieu before the end of that same "reference year".

Not exactly the UK system that will allow employers to push workers to work overtime till they drop!

The unintended practical consequences for the worker and the company won't change the meaning.
B D Finch (asker) Sep 1, 2019:
I think I've found the answer I think this is probably about the difference between the reference year for paid leave, as set out in the Code du travail and amended by the Loi travail, and the calendar year.

https://www.legisocial.fr/actualites-sociales/1978-periode-d...
"Avant la loi travail
La période pendant laquelle le salarié fait l’acquisition des jours de congés payés se nomme « la période de référence »

Légalement cette période est fixée 1er juin N au 31 mai N+1.

Les entreprises qui décomptent le temps de travail sur une durée supérieure à la semaine et dans la limite d’une année (modulation par exemple) ont la possibilité de fixer une autre période."

However that has now been amended:

"Depuis la loi travail
Désormais, selon l’article L 3141-10 modifié (champ de la négociation collective) une autre période de référence dérogeant à la période légale peut être fixée par :

Un accord d'entreprise ou d'établissement ;
Ou, à défaut, par une convention ou un accord de branche."
Adrian MM. Sep 1, 2019:
@ asker - something chronologically different You have. I believe - put your finger on it. but we really need a worked example in the ST for a misalignment - as in a terminal UK trading tax accounting ref. period splling over into a broken 15-month period or shortened to an 8-month stub period.
B D Finch (asker) Aug 31, 2019:
Does the "année de référence" means something chronologically different from " l'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées"?

Proposed translations

1 day 6 hrs
French term (edited): à récupérer d’ici fin à la fin de l\'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées
Selected

days off in lieu must be taken before the end of the year in which overtime has been worked

days off in lieu must be taken before the end of the year in which overtime has been worked.

or

days off in lieu can be taken before the end of the year in which overtime has been worked.

as I'm not sure to which extent you are allowed overtime in this specifically French laws about working hours.


"Il est toutefois prévu la possibilité d’un report d'une semaine sur l'autre dans la limite d'un cumul maximum de 20 heures par année de référence à récupérer d’ici fin à la fin de l'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées"

there is NO MISTAKE / typo in this ST

"à récupérer d’ici fin" is always followed by a date indicating the time limit.
see https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="à récupérer d'ici fin"


here the time limit is:

"à la fin de l'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées"


so the structure is

à récupérer d’ici fin + the date when this period ends = "à la fin de l'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées"


for "récupérer" I would say "taking days off in lieu"



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Note added at 1 day 7 hrs (2019-08-31 21:22:30 GMT)
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the only "recovering" allowed here is "taking days off" NOT any other form - like getting paid additionally.

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Note added at 1 day 22 hrs (2019-09-01 12:33:39 GMT)
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regarding

"There would also be a problem if it did mean that and if overtime was worked so close to the end of the year that there was insufficient time left to take the time off in lieu in the same year."

Agree completely on that practical aspect but that doesn't change one iota the intended meaning of the text i.e. "NO OVERTIME allowed, some redistribution of the working hours allowed (of up to 20 hours) within one calendar year"

It wouldn't be the first (and probably not the last) well-meaning legislation that has loftily ignored practical consequences of nice principles.


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Note added at 1 day 23 hrs (2019-09-01 12:49:44 GMT)
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correction:

taking into account the previously mentioned "par année de référence" changes the meaning of "année" within which the overtime was worked and has to be compensated by time off in lieu.

All that "overtime/time off" must happen within this "année de référence" NOT within a calendar year as I initially assumed.
Note from asker:
Yes, definitely "time off in lieu" but I am not convinced that this means by the end of the year in which they are worked. There would also be a problem if it did mean that and if overtime was worked so close to the end of the year that there was insufficient time left to take the time off in lieu in the same year.
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Your translation was right, but there <b>was</b> a typo, as now clarified by the client."
+6
24 mins

to be recovered by the end of the year

It seems that there may be an error in the source text. "d’ici fin à la fin de l'année" should likely be "d'ici la fin d'année".

You may want to double check with the client about whether they made a mistake in the source text.
Note from asker:
Thank you, but I prefer to say that days off in lieu are taken, rather than "recovered". Also, the essential question was the repetition in "d’ici fin à la fin de l'année au cours de laquelle elles ont été effectuées". It looked wrong and it turns oout that it was a typo by the client.
Peer comment(s):
agree Philippe Etienne : This is how I read it as well: a stray "fin". Counters are reset each year.
2 hrs
agree Michele Fauble
2 hrs
agree Ph_B (X) : to be recovered by the end of the year
3 hrs
agree writeaway
9 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
1 day 2 hrs
agree Stephanie Benoist
1 day 23 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs
French term (edited): à récupérer d’ici fin (d'année) à la fin de l'année

to be recouped between now and the year-end, carried back to the end of the year

We may, as suggested, need to read année twice into the wording that does make sense as a 'stray' year, namely by the year-end (say 2019) extrapolated or carried back to the end of the year (say 2018) in the course of which the hours had been worked. So there is a 'report' /carry-over within the year of the hours worked, albeit carried back another year for a broken period.



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Note added at 3 days 8 hrs (2019-09-02 22:37:11 GMT) Post-grading
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So I was on to yet another wild goose chase then……

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Note added at 3 days 19 hrs (2019-09-03 09:20:58 GMT) Post-grading
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Not to worry. I liked my goose cooked - especially on St. Martin's Day in Austria and Germany.
Reference:

http://www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/5990359-d%3Fici-%3F-la-fin-de-l%3Fann%3Fe-from-now-until-year-end

Note from asker:
Thanks Adrian. It turns out that it was a typo. There would also be a problem in using the word "now" as that would be the date of the signing of the agreement by management and unions.
Sorry!
Peer comment(s):
agree Ph_B (X) : to be recouped between now and the year-end
2 hrs
Thanks. The pith of the question is the different timings-
Something went wrong...
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