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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

oeuvre sage

English translation:

well-behaved work

Added to glossary by Una Dimitrijevic
Mar 16, 2022 12:09
2 yrs ago
44 viewers *
French term

oeuvre sage

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting painting restoration
The context is a documentary about a surrealist painter in which a restorer says:
"Toyen est toujours une technicienne accomplie, ces tableaux sont « sages », comme on dit dans notre métier : ils tiennent bien, ils sont faits comme il faut."

Could anyone help me with an equivalent English expression?

Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 well behaved
4 +3 conventional techniques (in work)
4 a work using techniques informed by artistic wisdom
3 skillful
3 honest painting
3 Non-disruptive art(works)
3 well-crafted
2 prudently crafted (resilient) work of art

Discussion

Una Dimitrijevic (asker) Mar 18, 2022:
Thanks for the lively discussion and for that find @Alison. I decided to go with "well-behaved" as a result, since while I think the restorer is indeed saying that the painting is well-crafted using conventional techniques, I need something that is less generic a phrase, as @Philippa says.
Philippa Smith Mar 17, 2022:
Lara, I'm perfectly aware of that rule, but here they are using an anaphora-type device, and it works.

Conor, sure, but I'd argue that they are, and I'm really not sure where the French thing comes in: an article about an English artist by English speakers...

...but it's getting too late to keep arguing the toss, I'm still finishing a translation, so I'm happy to agree to disagree! 😄
Lara Barnett Mar 17, 2022:
@ Philippa A comma is normally followed by "which", it is incorrect to follow it using "that".
Conor McAuley Mar 17, 2022:
I would almost argue that no string of three or four words in the quote could be regarded as idiomatic or natural English.
These people probably read (and possibly speak) French very frequently and are unaware of interference.
Conor McAuley Mar 17, 2022:
I will post "well-crafted" 24 hours after my request to Melanie. I don't think my original idea, "technically conventional" (which got "recycled" anyway!), quite hits the exact spot.
Philippa Smith Mar 17, 2022:
Clues to the article not being written by English-speakers? So are they just pretending they wrote it?
Conor McAuley Mar 17, 2022:
Really, there are so many clues...

I've been in France for years, so fighting against my own Franglais is an almost-daily battle! (That I win.)
Philippa Smith Mar 17, 2022:
@Lara Sorry but I totally disagree, see my answer to Conor. The comma is fine, as are the long sentences: it's an academic piece, not a press release... ;-)
Lara Barnett Mar 17, 2022:
Second language I agree with CONOR - long sentences, incorrect usage of comma with "that" (also used twice in a row), and non-idiomatic expressions. Unless it was just a lazy translator..
Philippa Smith Mar 17, 2022:
@Conor Sounds like fluent, high quality academic language to me! And written by anglophones as far as I can see.

As for "good craftmanship", leaving aside the gender problem of that particular word, I think the issue is that the sentence in question is someone SPEAKING - so you need to respect their voice. They didn't say "bon niveau de technicité" or something, they said "sages". Plus "good craftmanship" doesn't really add up with "as we say in the trade" as it's a very general, generic sort of a description.

But it's interesting to see the different views arising from this little term!
Conor McAuley Mar 17, 2022:
Smells a bit translatorese or someone who isn't aware of second-language interference to me.
Philippa Smith Mar 17, 2022:
@Alison That's a fabulous find Alison! And so to-the-point, well done for unearthing it.
Alison MacG Mar 17, 2022:
This supports both Philippa's & Yvonne's answers From National Gallery Technical Bulletin Volume 35, Practice Makes Imperfect: Reynolds’s Painting Technique
It has been a consistent observation of painting conservators faced with the problems – real and imagined – that paintings by Reynolds might present, that certain of his pictures are painted in a straightforward and largely durable manner, and are ‘well-behaved’ in the sense of their responses to conservation, while others are so complex, multilayered and heterogeneous in constitution as to be untreatable by conventional means.
https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/media/23860/volume35essay...
Conor McAuley Mar 17, 2022:
You should post it Melanie, then, but maybe in the form of "well-crafted", to fit into the sentence.
Lara Barnett Mar 17, 2022:
@ Philippa: 1751 I think this is plausible. It may or may not be the case here, but using a historic word is not always a sign of explicitly referring to history or the past. Meanings can be carried through a word, which changes its usage over time due to human interaction, changing politics, new cultural perspectives etc etc. I have often found tricky translations or word-meanings by researching the etymology or historic roots of a word, while that certainly does not mean that my translations in this case refer back to historic events. It simply means that history can, at times, help us to understand language and, in our case, to also translate it well.
Lara Barnett Mar 17, 2022:
Craftsmanship Sounds OK to me.
Conor McAuley Mar 17, 2022:
Good craftmanship works for me...ironically, it's sexist language or whatever you want to call it.

Good craftmanship -- easy to restore.
Melanie Kathan Mar 17, 2022:
@Cadastre & Philippa That quote seems to go along with the first suggestion I posted here in the discussion. In the grand scheme of things, though, 'well behaved' seems like it could work in both senses (1. nothing outrageous and 2. good craftsmanship, holds up over time), whereas 'honest' seems to go much more along the lines of 'good honest work' or 'an honest farmer', implying only authenticity rather than anything about technique.
Philippa Smith Mar 17, 2022:
@CadastreToulous That's a lovely quote! But - 1751? Not sure that's relevant here. To me it's an ethical/aesthetic appreciation of painting that sounds pretty specific to the 18th century. I can't imagine that a modern-day restorer would be saying these paintings are "sages" in this way, i.e. don't have anything excessive/extravagant about them, particularly not when referring to a 20th-century surrealist painter and their works.
Bourth Mar 16, 2022:
No joke, deadly serious, and technical
Philippa Smith Mar 16, 2022:
@Una I really do think that the tone is jokey, not technical, especially with the quote marks pointing to not taking the term 'sages' literally.
Una Dimitrijevic (asker) Mar 16, 2022:
@Lara I have never seen the word applied in a technical, artistic context, "well-behaved" is the most direct translation, but here the restorer (as he cleans the painting) seems to be saying that the work is technically correct, much like what @Connor and @Yvonne have said. I was just wondering if this was a term known to art restorers (as the speaker seems to suggest) and if there's an English equivalent.
Melanie Kathan Mar 16, 2022:
I agree with David regarding the unlikeliness of 'sage' being a sort of abbreviation, and with Philippa and Conor regarding another possible interpretation of how a painting could be "well behaved." ;)
Conor McAuley Mar 16, 2022:
I think the "ils tiennent bien" part means the paintings age well, also then you have "ils sont faits comme il faut", coming from a restorer -- this means the paintings are relatively easy to restore because of how they were painted.

Maybe "technically conventional"? Not my subject field really, but I think that's the essence of it.
David Vaughn Mar 16, 2022:
@ Lara Yes, I understood your question. I find that shortened version being created as unlikely. A little like calling an automobile a "bill". But even if it were, it doesn't fit the context: "ces tableaux sont « sages »" In this context, "sage" is not surprising usage to me, either in the meaning suggested by Philippa, or with a more purely aesthetic meaning.
Lara Barnett Mar 16, 2022:
@ David I meant etymologically could it perhaps have become an abbreviation, so that it now holds its own meaning.
David Vaughn Mar 16, 2022:
"Abbreviaton perhaps....?" I don't see that as a possibility.
Lara Barnett Mar 16, 2022:
Abbreviaton perhaps....? Could this be an abbreviation of the terms Finissage or Vernissage, in the sense that traditionally the varnished paintings were the ones that remained well-preserved and therefore lasted longer? So that perhaps over time this has been abbreviated to "sage"?
Whatever it means, it might be worth using the French and adding a gloss, if it is taken from a culturally-based word such as one of these of course.
David Vaughn Mar 16, 2022:
Can you give more information on this term "sage"? In this context, I believe the closest image I get is what Melanie mentions – the phrase is very commonly used to refer to well-behaved children. It is also used in a sexual/romantic context referring to someone who is not adventurous. Not coloring outside the lines. Definitely not a complement, but balanced by the author saying the artist is technically-accomplished.
Philippa Smith Mar 16, 2022:
@Melanie How funny, we posted the same thing at exactly the same moment! Though we have a slightly different slant: I think they're well behaved in the sense of being made well and therefore being easy to restore, so sort of like good pupils. ;-)
Melanie Kathan Mar 16, 2022:
"Well behaved" Combined with the description of Toyen as being an accomplished "technician", I would assume this means his paintings followed the conventions/rules they were expected to follow, didn't go outside of the box in any way, etc., but (possibly) were not necessarily that artistically interesting, either. Perhaps 'prosaic' or 'academic' could help convey this meaning?
Barbara Cochran, MFA Mar 16, 2022:
"informed by artistic wisdom"?
Lara Barnett Mar 16, 2022:
@ Asker Can you give more information on this term "sage"? is it very common in French? I cannot see any usage of it in this context.

Proposed translations

+2
38 mins
Selected

well behaved

This is what I'd use, as I feel it captures the same tone of slightly anthropomorphising the works: I think the restorer is saying the artist's paintings are well behaved as they're easy to work with, they don't just fall to bits, they don't "play up".
Peer comment(s):
neutral David Vaughn : If the text is not talking at all about aesthetics, then this purely technical explanation could hold water. I do not know if retouchers use "sage" in that way. But even if the reflection does have an aesthetic element, this could probably work as well.
13 mins
Don't see this as a purely technical explanation - I mention anthropomorphising!
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
Thanks Phil!
agree Victoria Britten : Possibly turning it around: these paintings "behave" well
5 hrs
Thanks Victoria, yes that could work!
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Although there are inverted commas in the source text, I am not convinced that giving painting the capacity to "behave" in any way conveys the focus on the artist having made the choice.
1 day 2 hrs
Well-behaved kids = good parents, well-behaved paintings = good artist! ;-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thanks, I think this works well in the end"
+3
1 hr

conventional techniques (in work)

I find it hard to use "conventional" in relation to Toyen's work as (s)he was far from conventional in their own life, non-binary in gender or genderqueer, and in themes or subject matter. His/her work was full of erotic images or even pornography.

However, in this particular sentence it seems to means that conventional painterly techniques were used for the works themselves and so they are easier to restore as they have "held well" rather than flaking away or deteriorating (an example being Leonardo's experimentation with techniques causing massive deterioration).
I have searched through quite a lot of material to find anything in relation to technique but the emphasis seems to be more on the life and themes rather than techniques.

This is a good article
https://www.artforum.com/print/202202/lucy-ives-on-the-art-o...

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Note added at 1 hr (2022-03-16 13:45:45 GMT)
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and in relation to her "artificialism" whicjh is described as innovative in that the paint is sprayed though grids etc I think the canvases were srtill primed and pigments nmixed with the appropriate mediums https://surrealism.website/Toyen.html
Artificialism. ... "an abstract consciousness of reality... defined by poetic perceptions of memories." Marked by innovative painterly techniques, such as dripping or spraying paint through grids, stencils and various objects, Artificialism sought to explore the material properties of paint.
Peer comment(s):
agree Anastasia Kalantzi
1 hr
Many thanks:-)
neutral David Vaughn : While the argument is convincing, I don't see "conventional" as expressing what you say. Technique can be conventional without being solid quality. Sage is a much less neutral term.
1 hr
I am an artist. "conventional techniques" for me ARE about following priming (of canvas or other support; some artists didn't bother and the paint flaked off e.g Jack B Yeats) and mixing proportions for paints/media and additions
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Seems spot-on to me. It could be put in inverted commas without perverting meaning or intention.
1 day 2 hrs
Many thanks:-) Yes, inverted commas might be an idea though this is just about techniques, and definitely not about the artist/artwork concerned.
agree Lara Barnett
1 day 4 hrs
Many thanks:-)
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

skillful

that is, well-painted in a technical sense or expertly painted
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

honest painting

Not extraordinary or outlandish.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2022-03-16 15:25:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course 'honest' is a word that can mean many things. I'm thinking of it as it appears to be employed here:
"The financial side of maintaining a practice is incredibly frustrating.
Galleries only wanting work they think will sell rather than good raw honest painting."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2022-03-16 15:31:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or as Webster's puts it, "...1b) respectable, creditable, commendable, seemly, etc. (a generalized epithet of commendation) [...] 3a) showing fairness and sincerity; straightforward; free from deceit [an honest effort] ... 4 being what it seems; genuine; pure".

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Note added at 10 hrs (2022-03-16 22:27:52 GMT)
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"Sage, tableau sage se dit en Peinture, d’un tableau dans lequel il n’y a rien d’outré, & où l’on ne voit point de ces écarts d’imagination, qui à force d’être pittoresques, tiennent de l’extravagant, & où les licences ne sont portées à tout égard qu’aux termes convenables. Peintre sage se dit aussi de celui qui fait des tableaux de ce genre."
L'Encyclopédie, Louis de Jaucourt, 1751

Does nothing outrageous, outlandish, or excessively imaginative that might be deemed extravagant, whose artistic licence is kept within bounds... Sounds like the description of someone who is neither boring nor exciting, nor particularly bright nor stupid, just a good honest bloke.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Melanie Kathan : This doesn't seem to coincide with the description of the artist as a good technician, or the phrase "Ils sont faits comme il faut."
13 mins
Neither does 'sage', actually, until it is explained to you.
Something went wrong...
22 hrs

Non-disruptive art(works)

Thanks to Cadastre's sleuthing I think this term would hit the spot (see link). And later in the text, 'tiennent bien' could mean that it 'stays the course as it is well executed
https://painterskeys.com/disruptive-innovation/
Something went wrong...
1 day 1 hr

prudently crafted (resilient) work of art

Prudent painting seems to be a trademak rather than a term of 'art'.

Two words rather than one.

The test IMO - pace our inveterate commentators - seems to be would the term be used by curators - rather than the oft-rude and artistically ignorant security guards - of UK and Irish museums and art galleries that shall remain nameless in London.
Example sentence:

Choose your favorite prudent paintings from 20 available designs. All prudent paintings ship within 48 hours and include a 30-day money-back guarantee.

the faucets gave the impression of prudently yet flawlessly crafted from

Reference:

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/780459810419291199/

Something went wrong...
1 day 4 hrs

a work using techniques informed by artistic wisdom

Don't think "well-behaved" is the appropriate option in this case.

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Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2022-03-17 16:18:52 GMT)
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The work is created "comme il faut", according to tried and true artistic wisdom.
Something went wrong...
1 day 16 hrs

well-crafted

Ok, the 24 hours aren't up, but sometimes, as a translator, take a wee risk, ask yourself what fits in the gap? What's idiomatic?

What type of painting technique or method do restorers prefer (i.e. have an easier job with)...ideally a specialist painting restorer would post an answer, but how many of them do you know?

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Note added at 1 day 16 hrs (2022-03-18 04:37:40 GMT)
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Oh, I forgot, see the Discussion!
Something went wrong...
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