Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
at the end of the door
Polish translation:
gdzie wierzeje wyznaczały krańce domostwa
Added to glossary by
Caryl Swift
Jan 13, 2007 23:35
17 yrs ago
English term
at end of the door
English to Polish
Art/Literary
Religion
Medieval sources
Zdanie: Cumalach was a name for women till Adamnan come to free them. And this was the cumalach, a woman for whom a hole was dug at the end of the door so that it came over her nakedness.
Cumalach to po staroiryjsku niewolnica. Jak mozna przetlumaczyc ten "koniec drzwi"?
Cumalach to po staroiryjsku niewolnica. Jak mozna przetlumaczyc ten "koniec drzwi"?
Proposed translations
(Polish)
2 +3 | please see the suggestion below | Caryl Swift |
4 +1 | za progiem domu | Mariusz Kuklinski |
Proposed translations
+3
3 hrs
Selected
please see the suggestion below
"2. Cumalach [1] was a name for women till Adamnan come to free them. And this was the cumalach, a woman for whom a hole was dug at the end of the door so that it came over her nakedness. The end of the great spit was placed upon her till the cooking of the portion was ended. After she had come out of that earth-pit she had to dip a candle four man's hands in length in a plate of butter or lard; that candle to be on her palm until division of food and distribution of liquor and making of beds, in the houses of kings and cheiftains, had ended. That women had no share in bag or in basket, nor in the company of the house-master; but she dwelt in a hut outside the enclosure, lest bane from sea or land should come to her chief."
Notes:
1. A derivative of cumal, 'a female slave, bondmaid'.
http://tinyurl.com/yfzh8p
"This document gives an indication of what life for women was like in the seventh century, Cumalach (that is little slave) was a name for women till Adomnan come to free them it says......"
http://tinyurl.com/ydfgrc
"... the door is the boundary between the foreign and domestic
worlds in the case of an ordinary dwelling, between the profane
and sacred worlds in the case of a temple. Therefore to cross
the threshold is to unite oneself with a new world." - quoting
Arnold van Gennep via Kim McCone in Pagan Past and Christian
Present in Early Irish Literature.'
http://tinyurl.com/urp5t
So, this is what I wonder. If I've understood the situation correctly, one of the purposes that a woman served was as a support for the spit on which meat was roasted. In order to carry out the task she stood, or knelt (or sat - although it hardly seems likely that there would have been that much consideration for her comfort) in a hole. She was naked and I think it was the hole which was deep enough to cover her nakedness (as well as placing her at the appropriate spit-resting level). The hole was dug at the end of the door's swing, or travel - in other words, beyond the furthest point that the door reached.
One reason for my wondering if this is what is meant is that later in that paragraph, we learn that women lived outside the enclosure of the house in case her presence inside brought bad luck upon the master. So possibly, this bad luck might extend to her presence whilst on spit-supporting duty.
The other reason is that the text I found about the significance of the door suggests very clearly that beyond the door is beyond the dwelling - thus once again keeping her and her bad luck firmly outside of the cosy domestic scene.
So I wonder if the way to translate the phrase would be something along the lines of 'beyond the dwelling' - in whatever style and register you're using for the whole text. And that's something I wouldn't dare to suggest in Polish. but I hope this will have helped. :-)
(Looking at the way they treated women before the arrival of Saint Adomnan, I do wonder how the species managed to survive . . . )
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-01-14 03:11:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I suggested something along the lines of 'beyond the dwelling'. However, perhaps closer to the original would be something like:
'at the point where the door marked the ende of the dwelling' ?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-01-14 03:12:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'end' of course - without the very Olde English 'e' - sorry about the typo
Notes:
1. A derivative of cumal, 'a female slave, bondmaid'.
http://tinyurl.com/yfzh8p
"This document gives an indication of what life for women was like in the seventh century, Cumalach (that is little slave) was a name for women till Adomnan come to free them it says......"
http://tinyurl.com/ydfgrc
"... the door is the boundary between the foreign and domestic
worlds in the case of an ordinary dwelling, between the profane
and sacred worlds in the case of a temple. Therefore to cross
the threshold is to unite oneself with a new world." - quoting
Arnold van Gennep via Kim McCone in Pagan Past and Christian
Present in Early Irish Literature.'
http://tinyurl.com/urp5t
So, this is what I wonder. If I've understood the situation correctly, one of the purposes that a woman served was as a support for the spit on which meat was roasted. In order to carry out the task she stood, or knelt (or sat - although it hardly seems likely that there would have been that much consideration for her comfort) in a hole. She was naked and I think it was the hole which was deep enough to cover her nakedness (as well as placing her at the appropriate spit-resting level). The hole was dug at the end of the door's swing, or travel - in other words, beyond the furthest point that the door reached.
One reason for my wondering if this is what is meant is that later in that paragraph, we learn that women lived outside the enclosure of the house in case her presence inside brought bad luck upon the master. So possibly, this bad luck might extend to her presence whilst on spit-supporting duty.
The other reason is that the text I found about the significance of the door suggests very clearly that beyond the door is beyond the dwelling - thus once again keeping her and her bad luck firmly outside of the cosy domestic scene.
So I wonder if the way to translate the phrase would be something along the lines of 'beyond the dwelling' - in whatever style and register you're using for the whole text. And that's something I wouldn't dare to suggest in Polish. but I hope this will have helped. :-)
(Looking at the way they treated women before the arrival of Saint Adomnan, I do wonder how the species managed to survive . . . )
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-01-14 03:11:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I suggested something along the lines of 'beyond the dwelling'. However, perhaps closer to the original would be something like:
'at the point where the door marked the ende of the dwelling' ?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-01-14 03:12:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'end' of course - without the very Olde English 'e' - sorry about the typo
Peer comment(s):
agree |
bartek
: the species is strong enough to survive those pigs ....
6 hrs
|
Yup!But,if the women had to be kept at a permanent distance in case they brought bad luck to the masters,one does wonder how those masters went about ensuring that they'd become ancestors...Thank you :-)
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agree |
Mariusz Kuklinski
: Caryl, wpisz to jako odpowiedź - w miejscu, gdzie drzwi/wrota wyznaczały koniec domu. See also the rituals of Samhain http://feritn.org/witcheye/andrada.html. And Beltain too.//Well, it was just twice a year
8 hrs
|
That'd be cheating-after all,I didn't translate it-didn't feel competent.Could you give it as an answer?Go raibh mile maith agat!//Doorways again...But I'm surprised they had the energy after spit and candlestick duty///Odd sense of priorities,I'd say...
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agree |
Iwona Szymaniak
: I agree with Teresa and Mariusz. Caryl, it is not cheating. You've done a lot of research, and I think that without your valuable input it would difficult (if not impossible) to do it right. So you deserve the credit. More above :)
12 hrs
|
You're very kind.But don't many of the best things emerge as a result of collaboration?Your translation above & feel for register & style are exactly why I wouldn't dream of trying to put it into Polish myself!Thank you:-)//I've added another note above:)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks a lot!!!!!!!"
+1
12 hrs
za progiem domu
@
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Caryl Swift
: I didn't really translate it.Anyway,I think this is the best suggestion to have come out of the discussion so far- 'próg' carries all the connotations...
28 mins
|
Thanks, Caryl but please put your target phrase up too
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Discussion
To Caryl and Mariusz: Thanks God I did not live in those times. And that piece on tropies made me shiver for quite some time.
http://tinyurl.com/yfzh8p
Quite a penalty for serving an underdone roast, I'd say...