| Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3 4] > | Why are we so obsessed with TM? Autor wątku: philgoddard
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than me
| | | | | Love 'em and hate 'em | Aug 2, 2013 |
I must say that for some large technical jobs CAT tools and the associated TMs can be a real money spinner. Unless of course, the agency claws it all back in discounts! Processing large Excel files, for example, is vastly easier using a CAT tool and TM.
Currently I don't offer CAT discounts, but of course the pressure to do so is currently very high. As with everything else, it is a matter of supply and demand.
There is no doubt that CAT tools disrupt the creative flow to some extent... See more I must say that for some large technical jobs CAT tools and the associated TMs can be a real money spinner. Unless of course, the agency claws it all back in discounts! Processing large Excel files, for example, is vastly easier using a CAT tool and TM.
Currently I don't offer CAT discounts, but of course the pressure to do so is currently very high. As with everything else, it is a matter of supply and demand.
There is no doubt that CAT tools disrupt the creative flow to some extent. There is also no doubt that they vastly increase consistency in technical documents.
I do a lot of contracts, and find the glossary functions associated with CAT tools of more use than TMs for this type of job.
Of course, there are those agencies who think that a translation of any kind is going to be better just because you use a CAT tool. I am happy to humour them and even provide them with a TM which will never, ever be of use to them.
The present is here, we might as well accept it!
Steve K. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Cathy Flick 
USA
Local time: 09:19
Członek ProZ.com
od 2003
rosyjski > angielski
+ ...
| Charge by time if it's all that repetitious | Aug 2, 2013 |
I'm a scientific translator and rarely get truly repetitive work. I use Wordfast as an alternative way of keeping track of terms and phrases and just use search in context to bring up my past solutions in a nice file, although I also use FoxTrot Pro for the same basic purpose (hard disk indexer that allows multiple string searches). Some jobs are only partially done in Wordfast, I just type what I want to remember (much of my work is hardcopy or PDFs that would have to be ocr'd, not always worth... See more I'm a scientific translator and rarely get truly repetitive work. I use Wordfast as an alternative way of keeping track of terms and phrases and just use search in context to bring up my past solutions in a nice file, although I also use FoxTrot Pro for the same basic purpose (hard disk indexer that allows multiple string searches). Some jobs are only partially done in Wordfast, I just type what I want to remember (much of my work is hardcopy or PDFs that would have to be ocr'd, not always worth it). If a job is difficult, which is alas usually the case, or if the source is hard to read, I OCR if necessary and format it in Word. This lets me focus on the translation itself more easily and is just physically easier with source on top, target on the bottom. It also makes it harder to miss something and lets me search the source to make any changes that aren't amenable to simple search-and-replace.
But I always keep track of time and Wordfast just doesn't save time compared to other ways. Really repetitive docs can just as easily be handled by copy-paste or using the first doc as the template and revising. Actually, my Wordfast habit has definitely slowed me down compared with the old way in ancient times. A fast typist doesn't gain so much from a pre-translated segment as a slow typist. My typing speed is simply not the limiting factor in my overall speed. I can type much faster than while translating, because it's mixed with a lot of thinking time. This is true even when the TM is my own. I refuse to use any other TM because evaluating and correcting time would make the job longer. I often find many errors in other people's translations on projects simply because I have more background than the typical translator who takes such jobs (I'm a real chemist and a real physicist, joint Ph.D. program).
So I offer to do allegedly repetitive work by the hour with a cap (often the full price if it's my first time through the doc). But many agencies are so afraid of that approach today, even when it's so obviously sensible. I won't do Trados match discounts. One client wanted me to do a third of a small doc (1500 words, which in my areas are gifts to the client because they are so labor-intensive per word) for free because it was similar to a previous doc in that part (entirely new with excruciating details in the rest). But the client had provided a very fuzzy source doc with every paragraph tilted at an odd angle. Took me two hours just to retype so I could translate without eyestrain and actually use any of my prior work! I charged full price, needless to say. I had already waived rush and setup fees precisely because of my familiarity with the project so they still got a bargain and I didn't get paid much more per hour than if I were working at Walmart....:( ▲ Collapse
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LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Also, if I see a new term for the first time -- I remember it right away -- hopefully for life. This way translation becomes enriching, not dumbing.
And, if consistency is really important, then there are ways other than just mandating a hallowed TM that must be obeyed. For example:
1. Hire one translator for the entire job. Pay rush fees or extend the deadline. Even a rush job can still be proofread and edited.
2. Mandate a hallowed style guide instead, along with glossaries. Just make sure they aren't 100% obligatory works of ignorant presumptions, e.g. that languages differ only in the vocab.
In any case, get over 'how the previous translator did it'.
As a translator, the last thing I want to be doing is analysing how some other guy, with a good probability of being less competent than I am, did it. Actually, I guess I could do it for a fee, but that's it.
The above is one of the manifestations of non-professionalism in the 'industry'.
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564354352 (X)
Dania
Local time: 16:19
duński > angielski
+ ...
| Not an obsession, just a useful tool for some | Aug 3, 2013 |
I'm not obsessed with using a CAT tool, I just can't imagine doing my work without it. I have used Trados since 2000 (a very early and fault-ridden version, probably Trados 2) and struggled to get to know the ins and outs of it for a year with frequent contacts with the then original Trados designers who were very helpful. I guess that back then, CAT tools were still a bit of a novelty, but I worked for an engineering company with a strong linguist team and lots of technical translations for com... See more I'm not obsessed with using a CAT tool, I just can't imagine doing my work without it. I have used Trados since 2000 (a very early and fault-ridden version, probably Trados 2) and struggled to get to know the ins and outs of it for a year with frequent contacts with the then original Trados designers who were very helpful. I guess that back then, CAT tools were still a bit of a novelty, but I worked for an engineering company with a strong linguist team and lots of technical translations for comprehensive mechanical equipment, and it was deemed worthwhile investing in Trados. To my constant surprise, only about half of the linguistic staff took to Trados, the rest continued, to the best of my knowledge, for quite a long time to work the way they had always done. I am pretty sure their work and mine were of the same standard, so it was just a choice of working method.
I worked in a documentation department, which produced huge amounts of technical documentation into a wide variety of languages. It was absolutely essential that texts be kept consistent, as updates to parts of the documentation would be issued from time to time. It would have been far too time consuming to have to look up the physical or electronic documents and search for specific phrases or terminology to cut and paste in order to ensure that all materials remained comprehensible. Using CAT tools was really the only logical way to handle this.
Since then, I have just continued to use Trados in updated versions, and it has become second nature, as 'normal' as using the Microsoft Office package. I am not 'obsessed' about my TMs, but they do represent accumulated work, terminology, concordance material etc. And for repeat clients, it really is quite handy to be able to check how you translated something for them before, maybe at their specific instructions, instead of having to consult old translations or glossaries (MultiTerm keeps track of all such terminology for me, very handy and simple to work with). Unlike one person who commented here earlier, I don't have instant recall of every word I have ever researched and translated... I wish...
Isn't this just one of these issues where there is no 'right or wrong'? Some translators enjoy the benefits of working with CAT tools, others don't. Quite simple, really... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
Francja
Local time: 16:19
francuski > angielski
| Phil's problem is that the agency doesn't understand your simple point | Aug 3, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
Isn't this just one of these issues where there is no 'right or wrong'? Some translators enjoy the benefits of working with CAT tools, others don't. Quite simple, really...
I agree entirely Gitte.
But if it's so simple why do agencies not understand?
Phil's problem is precisely that agencies require us to use CAT tools when in fact it's pointless.
| | | | Kay Denney
Francja
Local time: 16:19
francuski > angielski
| What a dream! | Aug 3, 2013 |
Gerard de Noord wrote:
My recurring TM dream is to translate Joyce's Dubliners with Wordfast and have the WFC algorithms notice themes and leitmotifs that haven't been discovered before.
Now that is some ambition! And it's a real pity I would not be able to read your translation. You would I hope write a thesis on it, so that your findings would not be lost to posterity? Or at least post a little video of magic translation moments on YouTube?
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Dania
Local time: 16:19
duński > angielski
+ ...
| The agency's point of view | Aug 3, 2013 |
Agencies are not interested in personal choices of translation style but in ensuring that they get material back that they can incorporate into THEIR TMs, so that in future, they can make extracts from said TMs to send to any other translator, thus ensuring a certain level of consistency in the translations they deliver to repeat end clients.
It is not ALL a question of making more money by asking translators to give discounts on fuzzy matches, there is actually some logic to the re... See more Agencies are not interested in personal choices of translation style but in ensuring that they get material back that they can incorporate into THEIR TMs, so that in future, they can make extracts from said TMs to send to any other translator, thus ensuring a certain level of consistency in the translations they deliver to repeat end clients.
It is not ALL a question of making more money by asking translators to give discounts on fuzzy matches, there is actually some logic to the reuse of TMs if more than one translator is to work on the same or related materials for any one client. And, please take my word for it, receiving a GOOD TM from an agency can actually help your own translation work, even if you want to question some of the segments in the agency's TM. ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
Wielka Brytania
Local time: 15:19
portugalski > angielski
+ ...
| Ever seen one? | Aug 3, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
receiving a GOOD TM from an agency can actually help your own translation work, even if you want to question some of the segments in the agency's TM.
There's the rub. I can't say I've ever seen a TM that I would even consider to be 60% satisfactory.
| | | | Laureana Pavon
Urugwaj
Local time: 11:19
Członek ProZ.com
od 2007
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
MODERATOR
Phil Hand wrote:
TMs are not really tools for us, though we can use them. They are tools for agencies.
I totally disagree with this. I use my CAT all the time, especially when working for my long-term customers (none of them are agencies and they have never even heard of TMs). Its amazing how much a company recycles their material over time.
| | | | | True to some extent but... | Aug 3, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
Agencies are not interested in personal choices of translation style but in ensuring that they get material back that they can incorporate into THEIR TMs, so that in future, they can make extracts from said TMs to send to any other translator, thus ensuring a certain level of consistency in the translations they deliver to repeat end clients.
It is not ALL a question of making more money by asking translators to give discounts on fuzzy matches, there is actually some logic to the reuse of TMs if more than one translator is to work on the same or related materials for any one client. And, please take my word for it, receiving a GOOD TM from an agency can actually help your own translation work, even if you want to question some of the segments in the agency's TM.
It's quite probable that agencies aren't interested in personal choices of style, but they are certainly interested in keeping their client happy. And, there actually are agencies that hand down own or client-made glossaries (or even style guides) that include a lot of preferential choices. I haven't yet been required to emulate the style received in TMs (more like requests or suggestions so far, if at all), but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened eventually.
[Edited at 2013-08-03 12:54 GMT]
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Dania
Local time: 16:19
duński > angielski
+ ...
| I have, actually | Aug 3, 2013 |
@ Lisa
As I have worked for a translation agency where I had some control of what went into some of the TMs and therefore also what went out to independent translators. I guess the question is what you consider a 'satisfactory' TM. To me, it is a huge help at times just to be able to find some specific terminology in a client TM, even if the actual text segments are useless, hence the concordance facility can be a great asset. Having said that, even if I find complete 100 % matching... See more @ Lisa
As I have worked for a translation agency where I had some control of what went into some of the TMs and therefore also what went out to independent translators. I guess the question is what you consider a 'satisfactory' TM. To me, it is a huge help at times just to be able to find some specific terminology in a client TM, even if the actual text segments are useless, hence the concordance facility can be a great asset. Having said that, even if I find complete 100 % matching segments in a client TM, I would still reserve the right to amend the texts, unless otherwise instructed by the client. In the end, I am responsible for the end text that I deliver, so I only consider client TMs reference material.
Having said this, at the same agency, I know that loads of TM extracts were added to existing TMs and 'uncleaned' files were run through the TMs largely based on trust that the translators had submitted 'satisfactory' translations (after proofreading by other translators, of course). The PMs there did actually have linguistic qualifications and were able to carry out quite a lot of additional quality checks, but I fear that in many agencies that may not be the case, and that the adding to TMs lacks quality control. Then, of course, you may end up with rubbish TMs that will only add to 'the next' translator's frustrations. ▲ Collapse
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564354352 (X)
Dania
Local time: 16:19
duński > angielski
+ ...
| Translation style vs method | Aug 3, 2013 |
@ Lukasz
My bad choice of word, I meant 'translation method', not 'style'.
[Edited at 2013-08-03 13:05 GMT]
| | | | Christine Andersen
Dania
Local time: 16:19
Członek ProZ.com
od 2003
duński > angielski
+ ...
| CATs can be used creatively! | Aug 3, 2013 |
I agree very much with Gitte - I have some very useful TMs from quality-conscious agencies, with contributions from respected colleagues. We have worked with some of the same people at different times, I believe.
Unlike Lilian, I can't remember for life every term I come across - and it's not just age; I never could. So I find the concordance a real help with terminology in context at my fingertips.
I have even used a TM 'in reverse', to find sections of marketing mater... See more I agree very much with Gitte - I have some very useful TMs from quality-conscious agencies, with contributions from respected colleagues. We have worked with some of the same people at different times, I believe.
Unlike Lilian, I can't remember for life every term I come across - and it's not just age; I never could. So I find the concordance a real help with terminology in context at my fingertips.
I have even used a TM 'in reverse', to find sections of marketing material that are very much 'the same as last year', to rephrase and rearrange them.
Importantly, segmenting can be adjusted or overridden, so I frequently merge or divide sentences, make two out of three or whatever.
The glossary function is great for saving typing - I enter all sorts of long names, client-specific terminology etc. and even correct versions of my incorrigible typos! AutoSuggest in the Studio versions is a godsend for fumble-fingers like me, but not obligatory - I know some people find it irritating.
The only thing I do without Trados is proofreading, although I carefully update the files and TMs afterwards. I can still work without it, but am irritated when the content, often scanned medical records, is the sort of thing that Trados would handle really well.
I have tried several CATs, and hated most of them - while others prefer the 'leaner and meaner' ones. Different types undoubtedly suit different temperaments and approaches to translation, as well as different types of texts - a weakness with Trados used to be the way it handled numbers.
Different alphabets probably make a difference too, so Trados might not be as brilliant for Chinese as I find it with only the Latin alphabet.
The output is usually standard, and thus compatible with other major CATs, or a text can be aligned after translation, so there is no good reason for agencies to impose a particular CAT on freelancers who prefer working without them or with a different one.
[Edited at 2013-08-03 13:47 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
Francja
Local time: 16:19
francuski > angielski
| Now that's creative Christine! | Aug 3, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I have even used a TM 'in reverse', to find sections of marketing material that are very much 'the same as last year', to rephrase and rearrange them.
Importantly, segmenting can be adjusted or overridden, so I frequently merge or divide sentences, make two out of three or whatever.
The glossary function is great for saving typing - I enter all sorts of long names, client-specific terminology etc. and even correct versions of my incorrigible typos! AutoSuggest in the Studio versions is a godsend for fumble-fingers like me, but not obligatory - I know some people find it irritating.
Thank you for these ideas, the long names you never get right, the words your fingers just won't spell right.
At first I wanted to include the "TM in reverse" idea as an idea I would thank you for, but then I thought, what's to stop you looking up what you did last year in your neatly filed archives? I am pretty untidy in general (right now I have housework at the top of my to-do list) but my work files are all safely stored where I can find them within minutes. When I get "yet another" press release on the same old product I invariably have a quick look at what I put last time and crib or improve as appropriate. No need for a CAT tool to do that. I do miss Google desktop which would simply list all the files containing a particular word or string of characters, but there's a post-it on my screen of alternatives somebody once gave in these fora, just haven't needed to try them out for the moment.
As for over-riding the segmentation, I know this is possible, but then some clients have asked me not to do it (I think there's a bug when they convert the files for Indesign). And I'm sure that it doesn't get over-ridden as much as it could be. I have been known to completely change some paragraphs, making bullet pointed lists instead of just keeping it as ordinary prose, adding translator's notes when there's a reference that all French will understand but that will simply mystify Brits unless I give a quick background fill-in, etc. And this is all hampered by CAT tools.
[Edited at 2013-08-03 14:11 GMT]
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