| Старонкі тэмы: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Spotlight on: the BEST RATE Аўтар тэмы: Bernhard Sulzer
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| Don't like it neither | May 3, 2015 |
Well I don't like the expression "best rate" neither. I even see other freelancers though asking for the "best rate" of their colleagues when putting a multilingual job on the job board.
What really shocked me last week though was a translation from French to German on the job board. Rate offered by an agency in Europe per word: 0,009 €
I think ProZ should not accept to publish such offers.
[Modifié le 2015-05-03 22:37 GMT]
[Modifié le 2015-05-04 05:59 GMT]
| | | | | Will someone please enlighten me? | May 4, 2015 |
Why are the same folks here getting so pumped up about this over and over again? If you don't like the rate, don't quote, don't work for these people, or don't take these specific projects on. That's it, case closed. Go elsewhere. IMO, the only thing that should be required of any bottom fishing job poster (and this was suggested before, and more than once) is that the budget or pay rate be posted up front to save everyone the trouble. Plus, to begin with, if you are getting your work from this ... See more Why are the same folks here getting so pumped up about this over and over again? If you don't like the rate, don't quote, don't work for these people, or don't take these specific projects on. That's it, case closed. Go elsewhere. IMO, the only thing that should be required of any bottom fishing job poster (and this was suggested before, and more than once) is that the budget or pay rate be posted up front to save everyone the trouble. Plus, to begin with, if you are getting your work from this place, chances are your business is not where you want it to be and you should be looking for a better clientele.
Angela Rimmer wrote:
One poster here mentioned not having best rates, just having one rate. With respect, I find that approach inflexible. Some projects do offer space for flexibility in rates, based on things like how many repetitions there are, whether the text looks like it will be quick to translate, whether there are other things the client could do to prep the file that would result in a lower cost in the long run, etc.
In my mind, "best" can mean "optimised" -- not exploitative, just flexible because as we all know, not all projects are equal.
All due respect to you as an outsourcer, none of the above is any of my concern. I am the service provider here. I set the rate. If your project doesn't "offer space for flexibility," and it falls below the rate I, in my sole discretion, feel inclined to accept, it only means that you'll have to find someone else who will agree to work for less. Naturally, if by doing so I price myself out of the market and fail to make a living, it's not your problem at all. It's mine. That's perfectly fine too. None of us in this industry has an obligation to continue making his or her living as a translator. ▲ Collapse
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If you tell your client you're giving him your 'best rates', it's not offensive.
However, a client or middleman asking for those is offensive, for two or three reasons (no particular order):
1. It equates 'best' with 'cheapest'.
2. It asks for preferential treatment without giving you any reason.
3. Alternatively, it presumes to asks you to not negotiate but simply give the client the maximum possible benefit of negotiation with none of the effort.
... See more If you tell your client you're giving him your 'best rates', it's not offensive.
However, a client or middleman asking for those is offensive, for two or three reasons (no particular order):
1. It equates 'best' with 'cheapest'.
2. It asks for preferential treatment without giving you any reason.
3. Alternatively, it presumes to asks you to not negotiate but simply give the client the maximum possible benefit of negotiation with none of the effort.
What's really sad, however, is how almost literally everybody is either asking for 'best rates' or already offering 3 cents per word or something like that.
[Edited at 2015-05-04 01:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Radian Yazynin 
Local time: 00:11
Член (ад 2004)
англійская → руская
+ ...
| Well, if they really need it let them have it | May 4, 2015 |
A service provider may say so: "A new limited time promo - 0.29/w instead of the old rate of 0.59/w! Hurry up, it's the best we can offer you!"
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Matthias Brombach
Германія
Local time: 23:11
Член (ад 2007)
галандская → нямецкая
+ ...
| Outsourcers already learned their lessons: | May 4, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
"We have an EN into GER translation job available immediately, user manual of around 12k words.
If interested and available now, please send us your resume along with your best rate in USD. Timeline is due in two days at 4pm CET."
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The above is a representative example (changed slightly to protect the poster). Often seen on job boards. And the company is from India. Not that it couldn't be from any other country. I've seen it from many countries. But you know what I mean.
Hi Bernhard,
your campaign already shows success! Today the following job posting (Eng-Ger, and from India!) can be seen in the job board:
Hi
We are looking for English to german translator of about 6000 words related to I.T by tomorrow EOD. Only native translators available immediately please send CV with best price to [HIDDEN] asap.
So no more demand of "best rates", only for the "best price"! 
Seriously:
Although I welcome your ongoing fight for BETTER rates, I doubt that you will reach the persons who work for 0.04 USD or less. They just don´t read these posts.
A couple of weeks ago there was a newcomer showing up in KudoZ, trying to use the system to get points to climb higher in the proz ranking, and at the same time he was offering on his profile a rate ranging from 0.02 to 0.05 €. Either he simply wasn´t aware what he was doing or he consciously tried to get a foot into the "industry" by this way. After sending a more or less friendly email at least he erased his "best rate" from his profile.
[Bearbeitet am 2015-05-04 07:02 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2015-05-04 07:09 GMT]
| | | | Vadim Kadyrov
Украіна
Local time: 00:11
Член (ад 2011)
англійская → руская
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
The above is a representative example (changed slightly to protect the poster). Often seen on job boards. And the company is from India. Not that it couldn't be from any other country. I've seen it from many countries. But you know what I mean.
Who are the people working under such conditions? If you are one of them, would you care to share your experience?
I once said that I would never work for agencies from certain countries.
Business "climate" in these countries doesn`t allow companies there sustain any business ethics/offer decent rates, etc. They are literally forced to stick to this business model.
In other words, they will have to find new clients in other countries to start offering better rates to their outsourcers.
The people who are working under such conditions are either inexperienced newbies who will most probably be "squeezed out" later on by the same type of translators, or (sometimes) they are talented translators who just lack basic marketing skills needed to find more affluent clients.
It is not bad, and it is not good either. It is just normal.
| | | | finnword1
ЗША
Local time: 17:11
англійская → фінская
+ ...
| sometimes they give you a range | May 4, 2015 |
This one from Lithuania, a few days ago, for 34,000 words:
$0.01 USD to $0.08 USD per word
($340.00 USD to $2,720.00 USD estimated total)
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Данія
Local time: 23:11
дацкая → англійская
+ ...
| I find it helpful | May 4, 2015 |
The appearances of 'give us your best rate' or 'state your rate in the subject line' or similar demands from job posters are very useful, at least in my view. They are the quickest way for me to determine that I do not want to waste time communicating with such hopeful clients.
I am grateful that they present themselves in such an honest way, as I can then see immediately that they are not used to dealing with quality professional translators like me. So I can simply ignore them. ... See more The appearances of 'give us your best rate' or 'state your rate in the subject line' or similar demands from job posters are very useful, at least in my view. They are the quickest way for me to determine that I do not want to waste time communicating with such hopeful clients.
I am grateful that they present themselves in such an honest way, as I can then see immediately that they are not used to dealing with quality professional translators like me. So I can simply ignore them.
Please, let's not do away with honest job posters... It's much worse if job posters don't state their ridiculous wishes for outrageously low prices directly and make sincere translators waste time offering their services.
[Edited at 2015-05-04 08:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Alex Lago
Іспанія
Local time: 23:11
англійская → іспанская
+ ...
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
The appearances of 'give us your best rate' or 'state your rate in the subject line' or similar demands from job posters are very useful, at least in my view. They are the quickest way for me to determine that I do not want to waste time communicating with such hopeful clients.
I am grateful that they present themselves in such an honest way, as I can then see immediately that they are not used to dealing with quality professional translators like me. So I can simply ignore them.
Please, let's not do away with honest job posters... It's much worse if job posters don't state their ridiculous wishes for outrageously low prices directly and make sincere translators waste time offering their services.
[Edited at 2015-05-04 08:49 GMT]
Totally agree
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
Вялікабрытанія
Local time: 22:11
нямецкая → англійская
+ ...
Angela Rimmer wrote:
Not sure why this is so offensive on its own. When I have my outsourcer hat on and the budget is tight, I will often ask for my translators' best rates. I'm not wanting to be exploitative. What I mean by "best" in this case is, "lowest but still fair".
One poster here mentioned not having best rates, just having one rate. With respect, I find that approach inflexible. Some projects do offer space for flexibility in rates, based on things like how many repetitions there are, whether the text looks like it will be quick to translate, whether there are other things the client could do to prep the file that would result in a lower cost in the long run, etc.
In my mind, "best" can mean "optimised" -- not exploitative, just flexible because as we all know, not all projects are equal.
I don't outsource translations, so I can't comment from that perspective. If an outsourcer is flexible from their side (relaxed deadlines, fast payment, nicely prepared files, outsourcer taking care of the formatting...), I can offer flexibility in return. There are many other aspects to remuneration than just the rate. Some clients buy me reference works, paper dictionaries, sponsor courses or send me prototypes of their new products. These gestures are also taken into consideration.
However, most of the "best rate" job posts ask for a bargain without a return gesture, and that's where things can get a little uncomfortable. In that case, the phrase is "best ignored".
IMO, flexibility is a good thing.
But everywhere else, it is tied to a return gesture. In the DIY shop, I can get a 10% cash payment discount. I recently saved 40% on a joinery job, and jumped a waiting list of around 8 months, because my terms were favourable. Sure, I could equally have gone to the local council house estate and hired one of the long-term unemployed for even less, but why take that risk if I can move a professional into the cost range I can afford? Translation is a business and negotiations are part of any business. It does not need to equate to exploitation.
Today, there's a post saying "Payment as soon as assignment is accepted by client. Low budget remuneration."
While that "low budget" may well be below my acceptable minimum, I have no objection against such a post, as the outsourcer is already offering a return gesture: quick payment.
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
Вялікабрытанія
Local time: 22:11
нямецкая → англійская
+ ...
Alex Lago wrote:
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
The appearances of 'give us your best rate' or 'state your rate in the subject line' or similar demands from job posters are very useful, at least in my view. They are the quickest way for me to determine that I do not want to waste time communicating with such hopeful clients.
I am grateful that they present themselves in such an honest way, as I can then see immediately that they are not used to dealing with quality professional translators like me. So I can simply ignore them.
Please, let's not do away with honest job posters... It's much worse if job posters don't state their ridiculous wishes for outrageously low prices directly and make sincere translators waste time offering their services.
[Edited at 2015-05-04 08:49 GMT]
Totally agree
| | | | | Most of my work comes from proz.com. Is it bad? | May 4, 2015 |
The Misha wrote:
...Plus, to begin with, if you are getting your work from this place, chances are your business is not where you want it to be and you should be looking for a better clientele.
I would take this statement with a grain of salt. Since 2000, most of my agency customers have contacted me through Proz.com. I work full time with a few of those, and I don't look at 0.08/word offers. But I don't aim at 4kwords/day either.
I just don't take what is written on the Jobs board too personally, but I do reply to suitable/screened agencies who contact me directly through proz.com. And I must admit that I still reply to some carefully selected ads here to maintain my work-seeking skills, but with less and less success.
Having a presence here only can be enough to translate more than 400kwords/year and earn an income suitable with what I think is decent (I don't adhere to the cult of poverty).
CAUTION: not everybody can be a self-employed translator, and not everybody can earn a living from outsourcers who use proz.com to look for translators. Not everybody can be a fighter pilot or a chess champion either.
Of course making a living doesn't happen overnight, and 15 years ago it might have been easier and quicker to build an initial group of loyal agency customers and work your way up from there.
There are all sorts of work/expectations in translation, and all sorts of rates, best or second best, can be negociated. I don't think people charging 0.03 or 0.06 do any harm to my business, because we don't offer the same service and we don't serve the same customers.
Rather, it is the wide-spread idea among the general public (and some tranzlaters) that translation is easy money that upsets me. "Low rates" are a direct consequence of this.
Philippe
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Angela Malik
Вялікабрытанія
Local time: 22:11
нямецкая → англійская
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dianaft wrote:
I don't outsource translations, so I can't comment from that perspective. If an outsourcer is flexible from their side (relaxed deadlines, fast payment, nicely prepared files, outsourcer taking care of the formatting...), I can offer flexibility in return. There are many other aspects to remuneration than just the rate. Some clients buy me reference works, paper dictionaries, sponsor courses or send me prototypes of their new products. These gestures are also taken into consideration.
However, most of the "best rate" job posts ask for a bargain without a return gesture, and that's where things can get a little uncomfortable. In that case, the phrase is "best ignored".
IMO, flexibility is a good thing.
This is exactly what I meant, and this is my approach both as a translator and as an outsourcer. If the client approaches me and indicates a tight budget, I look at how we can make adjustments or what tasks the client can take on themselves that could reduce the workload for me and thus reduce the cost for them. Can the client prepare the files for translation themselves, is there flexibility in the deadline, can we agree on quick payment terms, can the client take care of final formatting, etc.
And by the way, Bernard, I'm really offended by your statement that "fair" means fair to me. I meant fair to the translator. The last thing I would ever EVER want to do is exploit a colleague -- which is also why I make a point of paying invoices either on the day or within 3 days of receiving them. And you and I have never worked together so it is really poor taste to make assumptions about what I am willing to pay my own colleagues for their work.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
ЗША
Local time: 17:11
англійская → нямецкая
+ ...
ПАЧЫНАЛЬНІК ТЭМЫ | Best price or best rate - same thing | May 4, 2015 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
"We have an EN into GER translation job available immediately, user manual of around 12k words.
If interested and available now, please send us your resume along with your best rate in USD. Timeline is due in two days at 4pm CET."
---------------------------
The above is a representative example (changed slightly to protect the poster). Often seen on job boards. And the company is from India. Not that it couldn't be from any other country. I've seen it from many countries. But you know what I mean.
Hi Bernhard,
your campaign already shows success! Today the following job posting (Eng-Ger, and from India!) can be seen in the job board:
Hi
We are looking for English to german translator of about 6000 words related to I.T by tomorrow EOD. Only native translators available immediately please send CV with best price to [HIDDEN] asap.
So no more demand of "best rates", only for the "best price"!
Best price or best rate - same thing. Ridiculous.
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Seriously:
Although I welcome your ongoing fight for BETTER rates, I doubt that you will reach the persons who work for 0.04 USD or less. They just don´t read these posts.
Not so sure who reads and doesn't read these posts. But it's about spreading the word, to all, including ProZ.com
Matthias Brombach wrote:
A couple of weeks ago there was a newcomer showing up in KudoZ, trying to use the system to get points to climb higher in the proz ranking, and at the same time he was offering on his profile a rate ranging from 0.02 to 0.05 €. Either he simply wasn´t aware what he was doing or he consciously tried to get a foot into the "industry" by this way. After sending a more or less friendly email at least he erased his "best rate" from his profile.
[Bearbeitet am 2015-05-04 07:02 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2015-05-04 07:09 GMT]
Well, you reached someone and he reacted.
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Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
The appearances of 'give us your best rate' or 'state your rate in the subject line' or similar demands from job posters are very useful, at least in my view. They are the quickest way for me to determine that I do not want to waste time communicating with such hopeful clients.
I am grateful that they present themselves in such an honest way, as I can then see immediately that they are not used to dealing with quality professional translators like me. So I can simply ignore them.
Please, let's not do away with honest job posters... It's much worse if job posters don't state their ridiculous wishes for outrageously low prices directly and make sincere translators waste time offering their services.
[Edited at 2015-05-04 08:49 GMT]
For starters, it would be useful to know whether they really are price driven to the point of not caring about quality (even price-minded 'outsourcers' don't often get there) or simply asking you not to state a padded price in expectation of haggling.
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