| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13] > | From bad to worse... An advice? Native vs Non-native issue Thread poster: Inga Petkelyte
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| There are two kinds of people who work in both directions | Aug 17, 2015 |
polyglot45 wrote:
We are all different and no one size fits all. There are some truly bilingual people – I know quite a few, not all translators. There are some people who work into a foreign language because the market is short on qualified mother tongue practitioners. Above all, clients’ criteria for rejecting or considering potential partners is up them: he who pays the piper, calls the tune!
Of course.
There are two kinds of people who work in both directions. Those who are beginners and who do not know what they are doing, and truly bilingual translators who really can. And everything between them.
I truly respect the translators and interpreters such as those working in European bodies or companies who master two or three languages equally at a high point, with some other languages in which they can express themselves. I met some of them.
I also know some noodle soup translators. Lots of them out here, which gives a distorted view of the reality. But they are also called translators.
It is time we ask our official bodies - no not proz!! - to work for officiel recognition and protection of the legal status of the translator.
Edited for typo. English is not one of my working languages.
[Edited at 2015-08-17 09:38 GMT]
| | | | Inga Petkelyte 
Portugal
Local time: 02:14
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks to everyone | Aug 17, 2015 |
Sheila, sincerest thanks for thinking how to help.
Years ago, I had approached the National Institute for the Portuguese Language; they didn't have anything of the kind at the time. I understand they still don't as the certification issue continues open and actual among Portuguese translators (lucky Brazilians, envy envy). It doesn't hurt, though, to ask again, maybe something is being prepared in this sense.
The only way
About the top person... It would certainly add to my sel... See more Sheila, sincerest thanks for thinking how to help.
Years ago, I had approached the National Institute for the Portuguese Language; they didn't have anything of the kind at the time. I understand they still don't as the certification issue continues open and actual among Portuguese translators (lucky Brazilians, envy envy). It doesn't hurt, though, to ask again, maybe something is being prepared in this sense.
The only way
About the top person... It would certainly add to my self-esteem but I wonder if such person would be known outside Portugal, especially not in academic but translation circles. So the idea is nice only I wonder whether it is really pratical.
Never mind, I see I have done almost everything within my possibilities, now it's time to complete the "almost" and to accept that some clients are force majeure ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On translator certification | Aug 17, 2015 |
xxxNorber wrote:
There are two kinds of people who work in both directions. Those who are beginners and who do not know what they are doing, and truly bilingual translators who really can. And everything between them.
Translation is a deregulated profession, period. Nevertheless, it has some regulated "spots" here and there.
Spain is one of them, Brazil is another. Let's focus on the latter.
Brazil has a law dated 1943, unamended so far (though the state-wide regulations it establishes are issued from time to time), requiring any document issued in a foreign (i.e. other than PT) to be attached to its sworn translation, in order to be accepted by any authority for any official purposes whatsoever.
These sworn translations must be done by sworn translators, who are appointed after having passed a state-wide exam. In our 200-million inhabitants country, there are about 3,500 such sworn translators, licensed in a total of 22 languages. None are allowed to operate as such outside the national boundaries. Rates are statutory, state-wide.
All right, these sworn translators have been examined 'by the government' (i.e. by selected professors of their respective foreign languages) and, after having passed the exam and been appointed, they become licensed to translate in both directions between PT and their foreign language(s) for official purposes.
A few years ago, I met a relatively successful Brazilian writer. Her two books had sold out two editions each. In an attempt to 'go global', she sought translators for EN, DE, and FR. She sent all applicants a test: translating one page (always the same) from each of her books. The genre was what I'd label as 'esoteric romance', novels involving a lot of mysticism or spiritualism.
She also secured expert advice, highly educated natives of each of these languages to assess those tests. Results were appalling. So I asked her where she had found these candidates. She proudly mentioned that all had been picked from the Sao Paulo State sworn translators directory, her reasoning being that these must be 'better' than all others.
Of course! I'm in there, so I know that we - sworn translators - must be really good in translating official records, court decrees, deeds, business agreements, and many other thoroughly FACTUAL texts. Few of us - if any - are trained/experienced in dealing with the eerie spiritual content, describing the feelings around love and hatred, etc. etc.
So what's the point in certifying a translator?
What's the point in demanding a certified translator?
Like in medicine, translation involves subject matter specialization. Of course, there are 'GPs' all over. Any decent translator can properly handle a general-interest magazine or blog article, as well as the instructions for some 99¢ gizmo.
However when the targeted audience gets specific, a specialist is needed. While a medical GP can mitigate the symptoms of a sore throat, or perhaps provide first-aid to some bleeding, or perhaps broken bones, a specialist will have to step in to restore the individual's health. Likewise, if the intended public is made up of specialists, a specialized translator will have to step in.
I have drawn the line. So far, I have listed five areas of human knowledge where I won't translate, regardless of from/into direction. Yes, medicine is just one of them, however the list remains open. I hand these jobs over to specialists to do them.
If I am assigned a sworn translation (the law forbids me to turn down sworn translation requests, provided all other conditions are met) involving one of these areas, I'll rely on the expert advice of my specialized friends/colleagues.
Bottom line: nobody knows/can handle everything.
On translating in both directions, I started out translating professionally long before the Internet, globalization, etc. For no explainable reason, I always held a strong belief that a professional translator should not translate FROM a language unless s/he were equally capable of translating INTO it.
So I focused on developing my translation skills into English as much as I did the other way around. When the exam for sworn translators came up, I saw people taking courses, studying a lot. I did nothing of the sort. Just went there, took the exam, and veni, vidi, vici.
Of course, during all those years before the exam, I barely had any requests to translate into my technically non-native language, albeit keeping myself ready for it. In fact, this was the reason I originally decided to be an EN-PT translator, and to give up forever translating IT/FR, and later ES, as it would take me considerable additional study to translate INTO any of these last three languages.
After I passed the sworn translator exam, translation requests "in reverse gear" began seeping in, and started to grow. Practice makes perfect, so time changed me, from a bus having a reverse gear into a reversible tram that travels normally in either direction.
Yet I won't translate in EITHER direction within my pair outside of what I can understand in the source language.
Quite honestly, I don't think any kind of certification covers it all. Furthermore, I don't think the native-speaker demand holds much water either; I've seen enough sloppy translation work done by countrymen of mine, all Portuguese native speakers, working into our national language.
If translation agency PMs - or direct clients - just want to make their life easier, they should be reminded that the most valuable part of their work, supposedly that value-adding step they are paid for, consists of selecting the most adequate translator for each job. IMHO merely demanding native speakers is tantamount to cutting corners.
Let's make a farfetched analogy with the validity of the 'native translator' assumption. A recruiter is about to hire a switchboard operator for the company main office. He demands one that looks like a top fashion model, though she'll spend the entire day in a cubbyhole answering the phone. He assumes that only beauty can give her the necessary self-assurance to talk with important customers over the phone. The truth is that an ugly gal might get the same level of confidence from the assurance that nobody will be able to notice her ahm... lacking pulchritude.
| | | | | Never-ending question | Aug 17, 2015 |
Does it really say anything, to be Native or Non-native?
My two youngest grandchildren are officially Swedish citizens although born and bred in France and still living there. Their mother tongue is Swedish but they appear to speak better French than Swedish. Their parents have Swedish as their (mother) main language, the father although British has Swedish as his first and foremost language because we have always spoken Swedish in the family -- although fluent mine still has an En... See more Does it really say anything, to be Native or Non-native?
My two youngest grandchildren are officially Swedish citizens although born and bred in France and still living there. Their mother tongue is Swedish but they appear to speak better French than Swedish. Their parents have Swedish as their (mother) main language, the father although British has Swedish as his first and foremost language because we have always spoken Swedish in the family -- although fluent mine still has an English accent after more than sixty years practising. No native pretences there.
Please enlighten me; which of the above individuals are Native or Non-native? ▲ Collapse
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| "dominant language" or "main language" | Aug 17, 2015 |
George Hopkins wrote:
Does it really say anything, to be Native or Non-native?
My two youngest grandchildren are officially Swedish citizens although born and bred in France and still living there. Their mother tongue is Swedish but they appear to speak better French than Swedish. Their parents have Swedish as their (mother) main language, the father although British has Swedish as his first and foremost language because we have always spoken Swedish in the family -- although fluent mine still has an English accent after more than sixty years practising. No native pretences there.
Please enlighten me; which of the above individuals are Native or Non-native?
Because of situations like this one, terms like "dominant language" or "main language" make more sense than the term "native language". My children's situation is similar to your grandchildren's situation. They are German nationals, born and raised in Brussels, Belgium (bilingual city), went to the English section of the European School and now go to British universities. After their studies, they'll probably stay in the U.K.
As I have said before on numerous occasions, the European Institutions are using the term "main language", because this term is considered to be less discriminatory than "native language". The ATA uses the term dominant language in addition to "native language" and the ITI uses "language of habitual use" in addition to "native language". All these terms are less discriminatory than "native language" because they don't focus on the language you were "born with" but on the language that you can speak best. This language can change during one's lifetime depending on an individual's circumstances.
[Edited at 2015-08-17 13:21 GMT]
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 03:14
Danish to English
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| Very sad analogy | Aug 17, 2015 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Let's make a farfetched analogy with the validity of the 'native translator' assumption. A recruiter is about to hire a switchboard operator for the company main office. He demands one that looks like a top fashion model, though she'll spend the entire day in a cubbyhole answering the phone. He assumes that only beauty can give her the necessary self-assurance to talk with important customers over the phone. The truth is that an ugly gal might get the same level of confidence from the assurance that nobody will be able to notice her ahm... lacking pulchritude.
Uhh, José, why didn't you stop your insightful comments before this dreadful analogy?
Before, I was a professional, qualified and experienced translator who dares believe that she can translate into a foreign language. Now, I am the ugly girl who may do fine, but a beautiful one (who might or might not be able to do the job better than me) would be preferable. That stinks... 
[Edited at 2015-08-17 13:49 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:14
Member (2008)
Italian to English
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Let's make a farfetched analogy with the validity of the 'native translator' assumption. A recruiter is about to hire a switchboard operator for the company main office. He demands one that looks like a top fashion model, though she'll spend the entire day in a cubbyhole answering the phone. He assumes that only beauty can give her the necessary self-assurance to talk with important customers over the phone. The truth is that an ugly gal might get the same level of confidence from the assurance that nobody will be able to notice her ahm... lacking pulchritude.
Is that kind of attitude considered OK in Brazil? Suddenly I was whisked back to the 1950s.
| | | | | I didn't go deep enough into it | Aug 17, 2015 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Let's make a farfetched analogy with the validity of the 'native translator' assumption. A recruiter is about to hire a switchboard operator for the company main office. He demands one that looks like a top fashion model, though she'll spend the entire day in a cubbyhole answering the phone. He assumes that only beauty can give her the necessary self-assurance to talk with important customers over the phone. The truth is that an ugly gal might get the same level of confidence from the assurance that nobody will be able to notice her ahm... lacking pulchritude. Uhh, José, why didn't you stop your insightful comments before this dreadful analogy? All of a sudden, I am the ugly girl who may do fine, but a beautiful one (who might or might not be able to do the job better than me) would be preferable. That stinks...
The top-model-seeking recruiter assumes that such a woman has the self-assurance derived from royal treatment given by drooling men. Likewise the native-speaker-seeking PM assumes that a native speaker must have mastered their first language like nobody else.
To turn that down, in my early college days, I dated a girl that was stunningly beautiful... but unusually shy. Wherever she went, people turned around to look at her for as long as they could and, out of carelessness, they had accidents. They stumbled and fell, hit walls and posts, dropped things, etc. That made her feel extremely guilty and embarrassed.
I've seen many native speakers that write so badly in their very own native language, that they shouldn't ever attempt to translate. THEY should feel guilty and embarrassed from their translations.
As I have been involved with video dubbing for many years, I've met a bunch of dubbers. They give the Brazilian voice to some Hollywood goddesses. Of course, they exist in all shapes you can think of. I recall that one of the sexiest dubbing voices I heard belonged to a woman as plain as she could be. In Brazil, to be a dubber, one must be a professionally trained and licensed actor/actress. That woman had been a radio host, and was a dubber, however she never showed up on TV/movies, because her voice, and the way she used it, completely failed to match her figure.
Likewise, one worldwide-acclaimed translator I know, in his specialty, by his own choice, will not translate out of his native language, ever. Nevertheless, he writes articles in his source language with such literary cleverness and perfection, that he probably makes envious many award-winning writers in that language.
My argument was that the native-speakerness in a language is as wide and varied as physical attributes like beauty. Native-speakerness 'shows' on a translation as much as physical beauty over the phone. The difference is that acquiring writing skills in a foreign language (usually) involves less physical pain than plastic surgery. Of course, there is only so much plastic surgery can do, like an individual's natural talent for writing can only take him/her to a certain point.
Just as beauty is not a good criterion to select a switchboard operator, target language native-speakerness is not a reliable criterion to screen translators. When they are used, it's merely out of laziness, or a desire to CYA, as mentioned before.
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Tom in London wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Let's make a farfetched analogy with the validity of the 'native translator' assumption. A recruiter is about to hire a switchboard operator for the company main office. He demands one that looks like a top fashion model, though she'll spend the entire day in a cubbyhole answering the phone. He assumes that only beauty can give her the necessary self-assurance to talk with important customers over the phone. The truth is that an ugly gal might get the same level of confidence from the assurance that nobody will be able to notice her ahm... lacking pulchritude. Is that kind of attitude considered OK in Brazil? Suddenly I was whisked back to the 1950s.
I was equating this attitude to the native-only attitude taken by a translator recruiter, which could be okay in the pre-globalization era.
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:14
Portuguese to English
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Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote: George Hopkins wrote:
Does it really say anything, to be Native or Non-native?
My two youngest grandchildren are officially Swedish citizens although born and bred in France and still living there. Their mother tongue is Swedish but they appear to speak better French than Swedish. Their parents have Swedish as their (mother) main language, the father although British has Swedish as his first and foremost language because we have always spoken Swedish in the family -- although fluent mine still has an English accent after more than sixty years practising. No native pretences there.
Please enlighten me; which of the above individuals are Native or Non-native? Because of situations like this one, terms like "dominant language" or "main language" make more sense than the term "native language". My children's situation is similar to your grandchildren's situation. They are German nationals, born and raised in Brussels, Belgium (bilingual city), went to the English section of the European School and now go to British universities. After their studies, they'll probably stay in the U.K. As I have said before on numerous occasions, the European Institutions are using the term "main language", because this term is considered to be less discriminatory than "native language". The ATA uses the term dominant language in addition to "native language" and the ITI uses "language of habitual use" in addition to "native language". All these terms are less discriminatory than "native language" because they don't focus on the language you were "born with" but on the language that you can speak best. This language can change during one's lifetime depending on an individual's circumstances. [Edited at 2015-08-17 13:21 GMT]
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:14
Portuguese to English
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MCristy wrote: Annamaria Amik wrote: Diana Coada, PGDip DPSI NRPSI wrote:
Monolinguals should simply stop dictating how the rest of the world should translate. I've seen the KudoZ horrors posted by English native translators who translate from Romanian and the lack of understanding of the source text is shocking. But hey, who cares this native English translator doesn't understand simple prepositions such as "at" (Romanian: "la") even a ten-year old Romanian would understand and posts it as a Pro question, as long as the target text has a native sound to it? In the native vs non-native debate, nativeness seems to outweigh accuracy. What about the atrocities posted all the time by Romanian natives who translate into English? There are far more examples of this kind. And for that one English native translator whose Romanian is clearly poor, there is at least one English native whose Romanian is exceptionally good...
I hope he will one day post on his profile how he learned Romanian. I'm sure it is a fascinating story
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 02:14
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| "Dominant language" | Aug 17, 2015 |
Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote:
the European Institutions are using the term "main language", because this term is considered to be less discriminatory than "native language". The ATA uses the term dominant language in addition to "native language" and the ITI uses "language of habitual use" in addition to "native language". All these terms are less discriminatory than "native language" because they don't focus on the language you were "born with" but on the language that you can speak best. This language can change during one's lifetime depending on an individual's circumstances.
I like "dominant language" because there seems little confusion about what it means (though I'm sure in reality there would be loads). I'd vote for that. It would mean that truly bilingual people would have to choose one over the other but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. For a translator's dominant language we'd be homing in on written expression, rather than all-round use of language.
However, terms like "main language" and "language of habitual use" just seem to be adding yet another level of confusion to the pile. I've been teaching EFL for nearly 20 years and I've lost count of the number of people who use English all day, every day for their professional communications, and have been doing so for years, and yet make a real dog's breakfast of the language. I'd hate them to feel that they're qualified to translate into English . "Practice makes perfect" has its limitations and exceptions.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 06:44
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Will a rose smell the same when called by another name? | Aug 17, 2015 |
Most probably it would, and therefore, change in nomenclature would hardly solve the problem.
In earlier threads, the solution identified was to emphasize proficiency in the main/dominant/native language, instead of the language itself or the translator's association with the language. Because after all it is with the proficiency level in the language achieved by the translator that clients and end users are concerned, and it is on it that quality of the translation pivots.
... See more Most probably it would, and therefore, change in nomenclature would hardly solve the problem.
In earlier threads, the solution identified was to emphasize proficiency in the main/dominant/native language, instead of the language itself or the translator's association with the language. Because after all it is with the proficiency level in the language achieved by the translator that clients and end users are concerned, and it is on it that quality of the translation pivots.
I think that is the only way out - to talk and act proficiency, act in the sense of evaluating or testing, while selecting translators for a job.
And even if agencies do that - that is, emphasise proficiency - it won't be enough as has been repeatedly argued in this thread. A host of other factors too need to be taken into account from source language proficiency to subject expertise to experience to age and to what all not.
What all this underlines is that the good old days where agencies could just a pick a native and thrust a job into his hand and go home to a good night's sleep in the assurance that the job will be submitted well done, are long gone. Agencies now have no choice but to probe deeper into translator credentials.
They could perhaps standardize the process by developing metrics, but that would mean spending money on business process research, and as far as I know agencies have not quite got around to doing that. But that is something that they should start thinking about.
[Edited at 2015-08-17 19:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kunik
Local time: 03:14
English to Latvian
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| DAPLE/DUPLE? | Aug 17, 2015 |
Have you passed/considered passing one of these exams?
http://caple.letras.ulisboa.pt/exames
Also, obtaining a degree in a Portuguese university (whatever the subject) might help establishing your credibility in terms of language proficiency.
Sorry if someone has suggested this already.
| | | | MK2010
United States
Local time: 21:14
French to English
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| I agree with "dominant" language | Aug 18, 2015 |
There are people who are truly bilingual, as in they have native level fluency in both languages. But at different points in their lives, I believe that in many cases, one language is slightly dominant over the other: country of residence, work environment, cultural exposure, and other factors.
To use my own experience, I'm an American who grew up in French-speaking countries. For most of my childhood, I was more fluent in French than I was in English: it was my academic language, ... See more There are people who are truly bilingual, as in they have native level fluency in both languages. But at different points in their lives, I believe that in many cases, one language is slightly dominant over the other: country of residence, work environment, cultural exposure, and other factors.
To use my own experience, I'm an American who grew up in French-speaking countries. For most of my childhood, I was more fluent in French than I was in English: it was my academic language, my peer language, and the language of the culture around me. I spoke French with my brothers and friends, and English with my parents. To this day I still can't do an American division and I count off days of the week and months of the year in French. My dominant language has been mostly English since living in the U.S., but while working for the French Embassy and being immersed in a completely bilingual and bi-cultural environment day after day for many years, I would say that during that time period, the level was just about equal in both languages.
Anyway, everybody has a different story. Understanding the source language is as important as understanding the target language when it comes to things like slang, the vernacular, and cultural nuances. When it comes to more technical or specialized fields, I think the playing field evens out, and I actually have no problem believing that a person may have more fluency in a language that is not her mother tongue compared to her own native language when it comes to a specific professional field. If I were an American lawyer practicing French law in France, for instance, with a French law degree, I would probably be more familiar with French legal terminology than American legal terminology. That just seems pretty logical. ▲ Collapse
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