| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | “The” before a gerund Thread poster: Vaddy Peters
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 23:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Proof of the pudding | Apr 9, 2012 |
Helena Chavarria wrote:
Instead of "gerund", "-ing form" or "present participle" is preferred.
-ing forms can act as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs.
Verb: They were playing until late last night.
Noun: We love eating out; Smoking is forbidden.
Adjective: Waiting room; Sleeping bag; dressing room.
Adverb: He sat reading in the corner; She ran into the room crying.
In reference to your query: The sewing on this tablecloth is of good quality, The singing improved after the new teacher joined the school; The dancing in the new show is better than what we saw last year.
I'm writing from memory but I remember Michael Swan's grammer book(s) explains it very well.
[Edited at 2012-04-08 19:57 GMT]
Nothing for me to add here. Swan is the man!
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 23:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Objection overruled | Apr 9, 2012 |
Helena Chavarria wrote: Steven Hanley wrote:
And I object to "ing form": a gerund is as a gerund does. I suggest you tell Michael Swan and his "Practical English Usage" what you think. As far as I know, a gerund has to be accompanied by a copulative verb.
In my own experience, English native-speaker trainee TEFL teachers often have to be told what a gerund is; to cut a long story short, it is usually just simpler to refer to "-ING" constructions. Arguing about it seems to be more bother than it's worth.
Here's "gerund" defined according to wikipedia: "As applied to English, it refers to the usage of a verb (in its -ing form) as a noun (for example, the verb "learning" in the sentence "Learning is an easy process for some").
So, after weighing up the merits of spending any more time on debating what a gerund is (or might not be), I think the handy catch-all term "ING form" will do just fine while I fry the bigger fish.
[Edited at 2012-04-09 07:16 GMT]
| | | | Paul Adie (X) 
Germany
Spanish to English
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I started reading this post, but then got so confuddled, that I just decided to write. Without getting bogged down with grammatical terminology, what I gather is that you don't see anything wrong with the orginal sentence (I watched the skating of...)? Sounds like a bad translation to me, and I would want to change it immediately!
Happy grammatical gymnastics to you all,
Paul.
| | | | | Old hymn - nouns, gerunds, or what? | Apr 9, 2012 |
Do you remember this old hymn?
"Oh, the rising of the sun and the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ, sweet singing in the choir".
Are the "ing" words here nouns, gerunds, or what? And does it matter?
The use of "the" before them sounds OK to me, maybe just because it's old and well known, but perhaps it's grammatically incorrect ...
Jenny
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:43
Hebrew to English
| Ready for a headache....? | Apr 9, 2012 |
"The gradience from deverbal nouns via verbal nouns to participles
As well as distinguishing between deverbal nouns like quarrel, arrival, behaviour, action, and contribution and the corresponding verbal nouns in –ing (quarrelling, arriving etc) we need to recognize a complex gradience, as in the following example, from the pure count noun in [1], some paintings of Brown’s, to the purely participial form in a finite verb phrase in [14], Brown is painting his daughter.:... See more "The gradience from deverbal nouns via verbal nouns to participles
As well as distinguishing between deverbal nouns like quarrel, arrival, behaviour, action, and contribution and the corresponding verbal nouns in –ing (quarrelling, arriving etc) we need to recognize a complex gradience, as in the following example, from the pure count noun in [1], some paintings of Brown’s, to the purely participial form in a finite verb phrase in [14], Brown is painting his daughter.:
[1] some paintings of Brown’s {(a) some paintings that Brown owns} or (b) some paintings painted by Brown
[2] Brown’s paintings of his daughter (a) paintings depicting his daughter and painted by him; or (b) paintings depicting his daughter and painted by someone else but owned by him.
[3] The painting of Brown is as skillful as that of Gainsborough (a) Brown’s mode of painting; or (b) Brown’s action of painting
[4] Brown’s deft painting of his daughter is a delight to watch (it is a delight to watch while Brown deftly paints his daughter
[5] Brown’s deftly painting his daughter is a delight to watch (=[3b] or [4] in meaning)
[6] I dislike Brown’s painting his daughter [“I dislike either (a) the fact or (b) the way Brown does it]
[7] I dislike Brown painting his daughter (when she ought to be at school [=6a]
[8] I watched Brown painting his daughter ({a} I watched Brown as he painted; or {b} I watched the process of Brown(‘s) painting his daughter.)
[9] Brown deftly painting his daughter is a delight to watch (=3b or 4)
[10] Painting his daughter, Brown noticed that his hand was shaking (while he was painting)
[11] Brown painting his daughter that day, I decided to go for a walk (since Brown was painting)
[12] The man pointing the girl is Brown (who is painting)
[13] The silently painting man is Brown (who is silently painting)
[14] Brown is painting his daughter.
In [1] and [2] we have the deverbal noun ‘paintings’ with a plural ending. It could be replaced by pictures or photos: it is thus a perfectly regular concrete count noun, related only to the verb paint by word formation.
In [3] and [4] painting is also a noun, as can be seen by the definite article in [3], and in [4] not only by the genitive construction but also by the adjective premodifier deft (as compared with the adverb deftly in [5]). Yet painting here could not be replaced by picture or photo, but only by abstract nouns like representation, portrayal, depiction etc. Thus, painting in [3] and [4] is an abstract noncount noun of the kind that can be formed from verbs by adding –ing and inserting “of” before the noun phrase that corresponds to the subject if the object is not expressed:
the painting of Brown ~ Brown paints
the writing of Smith ~ Smith writes.
This construction can also occur before the noun phrase that corresponds to the object, if this is expressed:
their polishing of the furniture ~ They polish the furniture
the writing of novels (by Smith) ~ Smith writes novels.
Forms like painting in [3] and [4] are verbal nouns. In [5] and [6], the genitive Brown’s is used, but in place of the adjective “deft” in [4] we have the adverb “deftly” in [5]; in place of the of-phrase “of his daughter” (in [4]), we have in [5] and [6] the noun phrase “his daughter” directly following ‘painting’, exactly as does the object of a finite verb phrase in [14]. Traditionally, the mixture of nominal and verbal characteristics in the –ing form has been given the name ‘gerund’, while the uses of ‘painting’ in [7-14] have been distinguished as those of the [present] participle."
Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech & Svartvik
A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language
Pages 1291-1293
...Can you see now why I just tried to make it easier by saying "think of them as nouns".
[Edited at 2012-04-09 08:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | To be continued | Apr 9, 2012 |
Wow! What a lively discussion! Great thanks, dear forumers, for your prompt reaction to this question raised by kids. They are always eager to get an ultimate answer while there is none in this world where everyone has his or her own truth. And I try to at least give them the whole truth I possess, not fiddling around with things like “there is no Present Continuous of certain verbs”, sometimes practiced at lower levels. But, like in the case with “where do babies come from?”, we sometim... See more Wow! What a lively discussion! Great thanks, dear forumers, for your prompt reaction to this question raised by kids. They are always eager to get an ultimate answer while there is none in this world where everyone has his or her own truth. And I try to at least give them the whole truth I possess, not fiddling around with things like “there is no Present Continuous of certain verbs”, sometimes practiced at lower levels. But, like in the case with “where do babies come from?”, we sometimes have to produce some kind of an explanation to stop a discussion. I come out with this: When you attach an article to what you think is a gerund, you automatically convert it into a verbal noun, no matter whether the word is indicated in a dictionary as a noun or not, with all the ensuing aggravations. Whether I am right or not, it works. As for “a gerund or a present participle”, kid easily distinguish between them, even those whose mother tongue does not have gerunds. Of course there are some tricky cases like “Opening the window he jumped out”. You can associate it with a casual usage of a gerund as in “Upon opening…” or a casual usage of a participle “Having opened…”. And an “-ing form” here is an easy escape but we all want “rules” to a certain degree. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:43
Hebrew to English
Steven Hanley wrote:
If it said, "She was watching the girls skating," then yes, it would be a gerund, though it would be more correct to say, "She was watching the girls skate."
I don't know about "more correct". They seem equally valid to me.
1) it can be replaced with the infinitive;
What about "I look forward to hearing from you" NOT ...to hear from you?
3) "Watching the swimming of sharks is enjoyable," "swimming" is a noun - it is neither a present participle, nor a adjective.
but you can add an adverb here:
"Sneakily watching the swimming of sharks is enjoyable".
"The Big Ask" is slang
Slang isn't language?
And calling it the "ing" form is wrong
As Neil pointed out (and I mentioned in my first note), what you call it is essentially irrelevant. It certainly isn't "wrong" to call them both "ing forms", since the form of both is in fact "ing", they only differ in function, not form.
(Both Swan & Quirk et al refer to -ing forms although in slightly different ways).
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:43
Hebrew to English
| Tolerating ambiguity: Another pedagogical angle to try......... | Apr 9, 2012 |
"Good language learners learn to live with uncertainty by focusing on the meaning of what they can understand, by not getting flustered, and by continuing to talk or listen without necessarily understanding every word."
14 Characteristics of a Good Language Learner
Rubin, J., & Thompson, I., How to be a more successful language learner. Boston: Heinle & Heinle, 1982.
....Maybe it's enough to grasp that 'gerunds' (and the fluid gerund/participle ... See more "Good language learners learn to live with uncertainty by focusing on the meaning of what they can understand, by not getting flustered, and by continuing to talk or listen without necessarily understanding every word."
14 Characteristics of a Good Language Learner
Rubin, J., & Thompson, I., How to be a more successful language learner. Boston: Heinle & Heinle, 1982.
....Maybe it's enough to grasp that 'gerunds' (and the fluid gerund/participle divide) are syntactically and semantically complex and it isn't absolutely necessary to have to explain it to death to get along.
Maybe it's enough to understand that when you encounter a word which acts, works, looks, smells and feels like a noun (taking an article, modified by an adjective etc) then it's ok to treat it as a noun and accept it as one. ▲ Collapse
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Steven Hanley (X)
United States
Local time: 17:43
Spanish to English
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| "The running of John" | Apr 9, 2012 |
I think you mean, for "I was watching the running of John to see if he's got it, too..," "I was watching how John runs [or "ran"].
"The running of John" makes no sense to me - it sound like it is a transitive verb, as in, "I was watching the running of the business," but that's a different "run."
"When I do English teaching" is not good English - one does not "do teaching."
"it is usually just simpler to refer to "-ING" constructions."
It's sim... See more I think you mean, for "I was watching the running of John to see if he's got it, too..," "I was watching how John runs [or "ran"].
"The running of John" makes no sense to me - it sound like it is a transitive verb, as in, "I was watching the running of the business," but that's a different "run."
"When I do English teaching" is not good English - one does not "do teaching."
"it is usually just simpler to refer to "-ING" constructions."
It's simply not correct - "ing constructions" refer to a lot of things. "I was crying." That is NOT a gerund. "Painting" may be a gerund, or a good old-fashioned noun: "I saw a great Rembrandt painting." If it is a noun, it's "painting" as a thing; if it's a gerund, you were watching the guy do it.
To Ty, "She was watching the girls skating" is ambiguous - it is unclear who is doing the skating, the watcher or the girls. "Skating, she was watching the girls" is functionally equivalent to "She was watching the girls skating," which is why "She was watching the girls skate" is clearer: there is no ambiguity.
Slang is language, and so is Ebonics. "The Big Ask" is slang for "The Big Question." "The Big Question" sounds educated; "The Big Ask" sounds clever. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 05:43
Chinese to English
| No good turn goes unpunished... | Apr 9, 2012 |
That'll teach me to agree with you!
The running sentences - yes, those are synonymous, but they're both acceptable. You may not find that construction acceptable - dialects and idiolects vary!
For some real world examples, try Googling "the running of athletes".
I do teaching - me and the internet disagree with you. Once again, dialects and idiolects vary. You may not have this construction in your dialect, or you may dislike it for mysterious sociocultural reaso... See more That'll teach me to agree with you!
The running sentences - yes, those are synonymous, but they're both acceptable. You may not find that construction acceptable - dialects and idiolects vary!
For some real world examples, try Googling "the running of athletes".
I do teaching - me and the internet disagree with you. Once again, dialects and idiolects vary. You may not have this construction in your dialect, or you may dislike it for mysterious sociocultural reasons, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Again, Google to your heart's content. There are lots of examples out there. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alison Sparks (X)
Local time: 23:43
French to English
+ ...
| On a lighter note | Apr 9, 2012 |
The gerund I remember best is the one in Ronald Searle's books - can't remember precisely which one, but I think it was "How to be Topp" - where there is a terrifying GERUND leaning over and threatening Molesworth.
To quote Nigel himself 'As any fule kno,' "As applied to English, it refers to the usage of a verb (in its -ing form) as a noun (for example, the verb "learning" in the sentence "Learning is an easy pro... See more The gerund I remember best is the one in Ronald Searle's books - can't remember precisely which one, but I think it was "How to be Topp" - where there is a terrifying GERUND leaning over and threatening Molesworth.
To quote Nigel himself 'As any fule kno,' "As applied to English, it refers to the usage of a verb (in its -ing form) as a noun (for example, the verb "learning" in the sentence "Learning is an easy process for some").
If only I could find the cartoon itself, but maybe some of you will remember this anyway.
Hope you've all had a Happy Easter. Glorious sunshine here and the garden beckons. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steven Hanley (X)
United States
Local time: 17:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Maybe if you said | Apr 9, 2012 |
If you said, "I was watching John's running" or "I was watching John running," and not "I was watching the running of John." In the former, "running" is clearly a gerund; in the latter, it just sounds awkward.
I don't know what "the running of John means," because it is too ambiguous.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:43
Hebrew to English
| Action/Mode interpretation | Apr 9, 2012 |
...is something elaborated upon in Quirk et al, I suggest you read it.
"When an ing-form occurs alone or preceded just by a genitive noun phrase, the construction is syntactically ambiguous between an ing-clause and a noun phrase with a verbal noun in -ing as its head (my hobby is swimming, I hate lying, they liked our singing)...
'Our singing' can refer to either the action of singing or to the mode of singing...
...without further expansion by an object or an adverbial... See more ...is something elaborated upon in Quirk et al, I suggest you read it.
"When an ing-form occurs alone or preceded just by a genitive noun phrase, the construction is syntactically ambiguous between an ing-clause and a noun phrase with a verbal noun in -ing as its head (my hobby is swimming, I hate lying, they liked our singing)...
'Our singing' can refer to either the action of singing or to the mode of singing...
...without further expansion by an object or an adverbial, the genitive biases towards a mode interpretation..." Page 1065.
To Ty, "She was watching the girls skating" is ambiguous - it is unclear who is doing the skating, the watcher or the girls. "Skating, she was watching the girls" is functionally equivalent to "She was watching the girls skating," which is why "She was watching the girls skate" is clearer: there is no ambiguity.
Firstly, I disagree with your insinuation that there's anything wrong with ambiguity in language. It's natural, happens in most (if not all) languages, so there's no need to panic when it occurs.
I also disagree that ambiguity would really occur in the sentence you give. What you have here is your typical Garden path sentence.
"Skating, she was watching the girls"....seems unidiomatic to me, not totally natural.
"She was watching the girls skating".....I think 9 times out of 10 this would be interpreted as "she was watching the girls skate" given that English speakers "expect" a direct object after "she was watching"...+ d.o).
I think most people would say "She was watching the girls as she skated or While she was skating, she was watching the girls..." or some other slight variation.
In addition, the ambiguity could also be solved by that much forgotten little mark ' :
"She was watching the girls' skating".
...but this isn't the sentence which Vaddy was asking about and for Vaddy's purposes I think the quoted section from Quirk et al illuminates things somewhat.
It's simply not correct - "ing constructions" refer to a lot of things. "I was crying." That is NOT a gerund. "Painting" may be a gerund, or a good old-fashioned noun: "I saw a great Rembrandt painting." If it is a noun, it's "painting" as a thing; if it's a gerund, you were watching the guy do it.
If you say "I saw a great Rembrandt painting" it is a noun. If you were watching him do it you would say: "I saw Rembrandt painting [a great painting]"....If you said "I saw a great Rembrandt painting" (and you wanted this 'painting' to have the force of a verb) then what you are saying is that there is more than one painter called Rembrandt (due to the indefinite article).
You seem to keep trying to draw a clear line between noun / gerund, but in reality this line doesn't exist. For example:
I intend to voice my objections to their receiving an invitation to our meeting.
As you can see from the direct object (an invitation to our meeting) that follows the -ing form, which demonstrates that the -ing form has the force of a verb. On the other hand, the use of the genitive (a determiner in noun phrases) provides the -ing form with a nominal characteristic. (Paraphrased from Quirk et al). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:43
French to English
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote: 3) "Watching the swimming of sharks is enjoyable," "swimming" is a noun - it is neither a present participle, nor a adjective. but you can add an adverb here: "Sneakily watching the swimming of sharks is enjoyable".
N.B. with "swimming", which was the word under contention, it would be an adjective, though ("Watching the quick/*quickly swimming of sharks..."), as opposed to e.g. "Watching sharks *quick/quickly swimming"-- in this latter case, "swimming" would be an example of a gerund (and in both cases, "watching" is an example of a gerund).
[Edited at 2012-04-09 14:57 GMT]
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:43
French to English
+ ...
| @neilmac re the (poor) example from Wikipedia | Apr 9, 2012 |
neilmac wrote:
Here's "gerund" defined according to wikipedia: "As applied to English, it refers to the usage of a verb (in its -ing form) as a noun (for example, the verb "learning" in the sentence "Learning is an easy process for some").
You could expand this example in two essentially different ways:
(a) "Quick learning is an easy process for some"
(b) "Learning quickly is an easy process for some"
Usually, 'learning' in version (b), but not version (a), would be classed as a gerund. The two constructions have different syntax.
neilmac wrote:
So, after weighing up the merits of spending any more time on debating what a gerund is (or might not be), I think the handy catch-all term "ING form" will do just fine while I fry the bigger fish.
In terms of nomenclature, this is fine. However, (a) and (b) do exhibit different syntax. So for the purposes of teaching, at some point or other, you may need to differentiate between the two cases.
"ing form" isn't strictly speaking an alternative specifically for 'gerund': it's a broader term. Some 'ing forms' will turn out to be gerunds, and some will not.
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