| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | "you have an accent" Thread poster: Matthew Trulandzev
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Concer (X)
Germany
Local time: 07:19
German to Russian
+ ...
Apology for my grammatical mistakes: English is not one of "my" languages.
George Hopkins wrote:
If you learn a language after about the age of 11 you will have an accent. That's life.
My son was born in Germany with the usual way of to grow up (kindergarten, school, and now - university). He speaks German perfectly, but many of his friends hear a bit of an indefinable accent. He speaks Russian (almost) perfect but russians think, it would be a German accent in his Russian. (I ask myself, how do the spies survive? We wouldn't do. )
For myself: (of course) my German is not free from accent , ironically: no one recognizes it as a russian one)
Everything is relative: many germans use such a "heavy" dialect, that they need (and get) a German-German translator for their TV interviews I wish me no accent, but I'm not ashamed for it.
| | | | | Yes, I agree with you. It is all a mystery. | Oct 18, 2012 |
I have a very good German accent (almost unrecognizable when I read something), but my German is not really that great otherwise. I only had it for 2 years in school (not a very high level) and what I learned from my grandmother. My grammar is slightly off, and I almost don't use the language, but still I have a very good accent. Also my Swedish accent is very good, although I learned it as a teenager, and had only lived in Sweden for over a year. (combined 18 months).
| | | | Max Chernov
Russian Federation
Local time: 08:19
Russian to German
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George Hopkins wrote:
If you learn a language after about the age of 11 you will have an accent. That's life.
It's not true...I have for example the mistakes in my German (the 2th language), but I have no accent at all...
| | | | Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 22:19
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote:
There's ample evidence to support it in a variety of studies.
"There is increasing concern that in modern research, false findings may be the majority or even the vast majority of published research claims."
Why Most Published Research Findings Are False
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
[Edited at 2012-10-18 18:51 GMT]
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Concer (X)
Germany
Local time: 07:19
German to Russian
+ ...
Max Chernov wrote:
It's not true...I have for example the mistakes in my German (the 2th language), but I have no accent at all...
You are the first who says this about himself German pronunciation is very difficult for a non-native-speaker. I'd be better careful with such declarations. No offense meant but really: living in Moscow you have not too many "suitable" native-speakers around you. 
[Bearbeitet am 2012-10-19 10:10 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2012-10-19 12:40 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:19
Hebrew to English
LilianBoland wrote:
The fact that one famous institution makes such claims does not mean the theory is to be treated as the Linguistic Bible.
I'm not really sure what train you're on. All I have said is that there is evidence out there which indicates a fetus becomes sensitive to the prosodic features of the language(s) it "hears" in the womb. I don't know anything about a "Linguistic Bible".
I participated in various linguistic studies on language acquisition.
Really? Which ones? Where can I see the data?
Do you believe that children born in Essex, let's say, will automatically speak with an Essex accent? This is totally bizarre.
What's bizarre is you reaching that conclusion based on what I have said.
It was previously not even known whether the fetus could hear anything. Some research was done on rats and lambs
Erm, rats and lambs....?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:19
Hebrew to English
| For the avoidance of doubt | Oct 19, 2012 |
I'm sure I've already explained this but hey ho.....
The reason I believe that research is relevant is because we are talking about accents and how hard they are to shift (for the vast majority of us - exceptions have been acknowledged).
My point was/is that considering we are all hardwired with the accent (and all that entails) of our dialect/native language since at least birth, if not before (if you choose to put some stock in the research), unless we either p... See more I'm sure I've already explained this but hey ho.....
The reason I believe that research is relevant is because we are talking about accents and how hard they are to shift (for the vast majority of us - exceptions have been acknowledged).
My point was/is that considering we are all hardwired with the accent (and all that entails) of our dialect/native language since at least birth, if not before (if you choose to put some stock in the research), unless we either pick up (the) other language(s) whilst still in childhood or go to extraordinary lengths to shed our accents (voice coaching, elocution etc), then it is no simple or straightforward task for the majority (hence why the vast majority of non-native speakers who learnt the language post-childhood speak with accents).
The reason I quoted the research in the first place is that you (Liliana) stated as a fact:
"There is no scientific proof that a child starts developing his or her L1 in the womb."
At the very least, the jury is still out. You can't categorically deny the possibility - there's no scientific 'proof' that a child doesn't start developing his or her L1 in the womb either. There is currently evidence that they do, even though it is not proof....and I never claimed it was 'proof', only evidence.
I also tried making the point that losing an accent isn't always down to a linguistic 'inability' or linguistic constraints, sometimes it can be because of a social, political, socio-political or cultural 'unwillingness' (whether conscious or subconscious).
As someone who claims to have studied linguistics so much I'm sure you covered this in Sociolinguistics 101. (I know I did).
[Edited at 2012-10-19 15:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There is nothing wrong with an accent | Mar 8, 2014 |
as long as people can understand what you are saying. You can also use other words if necessary.
I'm a french translator and interpreter. In Quebec city it is 98% french. When I saw a tourist who was lost, he didn't care. Now I'm in Montréal where more people are bilingual. I used to think when I spoke with an English person that she was laughing at me but often it was because it was funny.
If I stop because of it.. it would be a lost. Practice makes bette... See more as long as people can understand what you are saying. You can also use other words if necessary.
I'm a french translator and interpreter. In Quebec city it is 98% french. When I saw a tourist who was lost, he didn't care. Now I'm in Montréal where more people are bilingual. I used to think when I spoke with an English person that she was laughing at me but often it was because it was funny.
If I stop because of it.. it would be a lost. Practice makes better. Now I do simultaneous translation and have worked with people of different accent as well in and french as in English.
When I speak eng some will ask how come I have no accent, some will say I sound like the nanny they had. Some ask me if i speak french and when I spend more time with eng I sometime have an eng accent when I speak fr and some will say I have a nice fr.
When I'm tired I can hear my accent but not as other do. We also hear differently. If you have a tendency for music it is easier to recognize the sound of a word.
So never give up because of other people comments. Everything is possible. As good as you can be we all have times where our brains just brings us to our natural roots.
Christianne ▲ Collapse
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:19
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Salithealbo wrote:
A lot of people here in USA can tell that we (others) have an accent
They have an accent. An American accent.
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Everyone who can speak ...has an accent of some kind. Et puis?
[Edited at 2014-03-08 23:55 GMT]
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Lingua 5B wrote: Charlize Theron's mother tongue is Afrikaans. She was first introduced to the English language aged 19 (which is not really childhood). I can't find a trace of foreign accent in her English which sounds Standard US English, but it should also be taken into account she's an actress and they work a great deal on their voice and have plenty of voice/speech practice as a part of their career. Here is an example of her speaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v70pNFdsBSg (starting at 2:00)
Charlize did have exposure to English before she came to the US, in school in Johannesburg, and from age 16 on she modeled internationally, first in several countries in Europe and then came to the US- probably close to age 18. According to the link below, she also received "accent reduction training" to lose her native accent (that would be the way her English sounded until that point) and develop American accents, even in everyday speech.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_reduction
I watched the video you posted for us, and although many will take her speech as that of a native speaker of American English, to me it seemed her Americanisms are mostly formed/forced, not totally natural, and some words come out simply English, almost accent-free. It's certainly difficult to detect for a non-native speaker of American English, and maybe even for some Americans. She does a pretty good job. Living in the US for a long time helps and will make it much more natural to speak "American-sounding" English.
B
[Edited at 2014-03-09 07:39 GMT]
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 07:19
Italian to English
In memoriam | When a non-native accent is a plus | Mar 9, 2014 |
While I was still at school, I spent one summer working as a waiter at a seaside hotel. It wasn't quite Fawlty Towers but there was a temperamental chef and a Spanish waiter called Manuel, although this Manuel was portly, from Zaragoza rather than Barcelona and well capable of balancing an improbable number of plates on his arms as he swept theatrically into the dining room.
... See more While I was still at school, I spent one summer working as a waiter at a seaside hotel. It wasn't quite Fawlty Towers but there was a temperamental chef and a Spanish waiter called Manuel, although this Manuel was portly, from Zaragoza rather than Barcelona and well capable of balancing an improbable number of plates on his arms as he swept theatrically into the dining room.
Manuel, who was a temporary worker like me, had spent a number of summers in British hotels and could speak decent English but the resident head waiter, a Neapolitan called Esposito who had an English wife, two daughters and no intention of moving back to Naples, spoke with a heavy Italian accent, which became almost impenetrable when he was directing operations in the dining room.
One day I asked him why he didn't bother learning English a bit better. He just smiled and said, "Teeps (tips)!"
Signor Esposito was of course putting on a show that diners enjoyed. The episode was a nice demonstration that Ambrose Bierce was right when he defined language as the "music with which we charm the serpents guarding another's treasure", and also that there is more to a meal out than just food ▲ Collapse
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Giles Watson wrote: ... One day I asked him why he didn't bother learning English a bit better. He just smiled and said, "Teeps (tips)!" Signor Esposito was of course putting on a show that diners enjoyed. The episode was a nice demonstration that Ambrose Bierce was right when he defined language as the "music with which we charm the serpents guarding another's treasure", and also that there is more to a meal out than just food
Thank for sharing this, Giles. There is purpose in what people do, often. However, when it comes to acquiring a foreign/second language and sound almost indistinguishable from a native speaker, you usually have to learn it when you're very young or, when you start late at least before the age of 20 I would say; you must be able to learn/ speak it for several years and have to be completely immersed in the culture of that language, and you have to make an effort. Talent for languages probably helps a lot for the late learner, and having spoken a different variant of the language earlier in life also helps.
On the other hand, some will always have a hard time learning a second/third language, and some won't be able to speak it without a noticeable foreign accent. Native speakers will recognize it right away, well, at least many of them. Even "hearing" someone's non-native accent, especially if it's hardly there, has to do with language skills.
If you acquire a second language, especially if you can have a sophisticated conversation about anything with native speakers, it's a remarkable feat. There is no reason to call yourself a "native" speaker. Just be proud of what you have achieved. As far as Charlize Theron is concerned, what applied to the Spanish waiter applies to her as well but in a much less obvious way. In her case it was important that she sounds almost perfect - any slight deviation (emphasis on slight as in hardly noticeable) from a "typical" American accent might make her even more unique - another big plus - IMO. While the Spanish waiter is loved by his guests for his thick accent, Charlize dazzles us with her almost undetectable or, for many, undetectable foreign accent when she speaks American English. In her case, it's obvious she really wanted to learn American English as well as she could - that was her purpose/goal.
And you don't lose your ability to speak in your native language (= sound like all the other native speakers of that language) without interference from your second one (well, besides pronouncing English names, cities, etc, or maybe trying to speak with an American accent). View these video interview of Charlize Theron speaking a mix some form of Dutch (maybe someone can comment on what she's really speaking here) in the first video and Afrikaans (her mother tongue) in the second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Q4ZMmw0bk&list=HL1394375284&feature=mh_lolz
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZU1UZfjLpg
B
[Edited at 2014-03-09 15:16 GMT]
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 07:19
Italian to English
In memoriam | Translating and interpreting | Mar 9, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
However, when it comes to acquiring a foreign/second language and sound almost indistinguishable from a native speaker, you usually have to learn it when you're very young or, when you start late at least before the age of 20 I would say;
Long before that, I would say.
You can't have an authentic native timbre unless you are learning the language from scratch, which means being able to ignore the sound systems of any other languages you may know. Once most people are past the age of about five or so, this is not really possible, although those with a good ear for music might be able to learn a new sound system at a later age. Most of the excellent interpreters I have met acquired their basic second/third-language knowledge when they were very young.
Translation, though, is not so much about proficiency in language production as it is about acquiring practical knowledge of how languages work. What you learn about any language, ancient or modern, is potentially enriching because when you are translating, you have time to think, profoundly, about what you are writing. When you are interpreting, you need to bypass the "thinking" part of your brain entirely if you are going to keep up!
| | | | | Native versus very good | Mar 9, 2014 |
Giles Watson wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
However, when it comes to acquiring a foreign/second language and sound almost indistinguishable from a native speaker, you usually have to learn it when you're very young or, when you start late at least before the age of 20 I would say;
Long before that, I would say. You can't have an authentic native timbre unless you are learning the language from scratch, which means being able to ignore the sound systems of any other languages you may know. Once most people are past the age of about five or so, this is not really possible, although those with a good ear for music might be able to learn a new sound system at a later age. Most of the excellent interpreters I have met acquired their basic second/third-language knowledge when they were very young.
Not sure I agree with your first 5 years window. I am sure there are many who have learned a second language in their teens and are indistinguishable from other native speakers. My "before 20 years old" observation is with regard to people like Charlize Theron and with regard to a second, non-native language. I said "almost indistinguishable" - I didn't say she was a native speaker of American English.
B
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