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tragfähig
arteriopulmonalvenöse fistel
Jul 11, 2020 11:11
3 yrs ago
80 viewers *
German term

die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen

German to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters This is a document including details for applicants to a competition. How old is too old to enter? How to express this accurately in English??
Anmeldeschluss für Bewerber, die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen, ist
Proposed translations (English)
4 +8 applicants must be under 35 years of age
3 +2 open to applicants under 36/up to 35 years of age
5 must not have exceeded the age of 35
4 not older than 35 years of age
3 those who have yet to pass their 35th birthday (35 and younger)
4 -1 who have not yet reached their 35th birthday, may
3 Applicants must not exceed the age of 35.
References
Altersgrenze 35
Being 35 means you have been around for...
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (2): Harald Moelzer (medical-translator), OK-Trans

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Discussion

Johannes Gleim Jul 13, 2020:
@ Thomas Die Diskussion habe ich gelesen, bin aber nicht mit allem einverstanden. Und eine einheitliche Interpretation ist auch nicht zu sehen. Deshalb halte ich mich and die in Wikipedia angegebene Berechnung des Lebensalters nach BGB § 187(2) und wende sie 1 : 1 auf die Frage an.

Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (BGB)
§ 187 Fristbeginn
(1) Ist für den Anfang einer Frist ein Ereignis oder ein in den Lauf eines Tages fallender Zeitpunkt maßgebend, so wird bei der Berechnung der Frist der Tag nicht mitgerechnet, in welchen das Ereignis oder der Zeitpunkt fällt.
(2) Ist der Beginn eines Tages der für den Anfang einer Frist maßgebende Zeitpunkt, so wird dieser Tag bei der Berechnung der Frist mitgerechnet. Das Gleiche gilt von dem Tage der Geburt bei der Berechnung des Lebensalters.
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__187.html

Das erste Lebensjahr beginnt mit der Gerburt. 365 Tage später wird der "Erste Geburtstag" gefeiert. Damit beginnt aber schon das zweite Lebensjahr. Genauso beim 35. Geburtstag. Damit beginnt das 36. Lebensjahr. Diese dürfen sich gemäß Klausel nicht mehr bewerben.
Johannes Gleim Jul 12, 2020:
Man kann den Sinn natürlich auch einfacher wiedergeben: "... dürfen nicht älter als 35 Jahre sein". Aber das ist eine zu starke Abweichung vom Quellsatz, als dass man diesen mit "must not be older than 35 years" übersetzen darf. Das Problem ist ja, den Sprachstil zu wahren.
Steffen Walter Jul 12, 2020:
@Björn Good morning and thank you for the additional information. In this case, the wording "die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen" in Jo's sentence is plain wrong (35 should be replaced with 36 and, ideally, "überschritten" with "vollendet"). Translator's note necessary, as pointed out before.
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2020:
@Steffen After being able to take a second look at it, I think you should take the following into account:

1) Thomas' link (which I found too) says "die nach dem 03.10.1985 geboren wurden"
2) Jo's link says that Anmeldeschluss is on "30.04.2021"

-> Let's say you were born on Nov 3, 1985 and apply on March 3, 2021. You'll be 35.

3) Sadly, I can't post the link without revealing too much, but if you google for the phrase Thomas found and then click on the leaflet, it'll say "Altersgrenze: 35 Jahre." [included in Thomas' answer]

Now, that usually really means you can be 35, too, e.g.: https://www.altersdiskriminierung.de/themen/artikel.php?id=3...

This is one of those language quirks like "Bernd hat viermal mehr Zucker als Dieter."

Many Germans (speaking from experience) will take it to mean Bernd has four times as much sugar as Dieter. However, strictly speaking, this should mean Bernd has five times as much.

And what gets me every single time is when someone writes "A hat viermal weniger als B" because that's just impossible.

Best
Kirsten Bodart Jul 11, 2020:
It's a weird turn of phrase as usually it would end with 'vollendet'. So, for that reason, I'd ask the client to confirm. If you get it wrong, it's pretty bad.
An age limit 35 would be logical, but actually I read it as 36 as well, but that sounds strange.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2020:
We have überschritten our capacity for explanations, I'd say. When I have vollendet my 60th Lebensjahr, I have just turned 60. Native speaker's understanding.
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
Tja ... ... Irrungen und Wirrungen, I'd say.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
Deutsche Sprache, logische Sprache
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
Do you really want me to comment on this c**p? My answer would be an exclamatory "Noooo!" because the (erroneous but frequent) German "erreicht" is misleading and should actually read "vollendet". Strictly speaking, "erreicht" would mean in this example that the patient has passed his/her 17th (rather than 18th) birthday.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
Lebensjahr noch nicht erreicht It gets even worse when you substitute erreicht for überschritten: https://www.linguee.com/german-english/translation/das leben...
Der Patient muss mindestens das 18. Lebensjahr erreicht haben translated as The patient must be at least 18 years old
Any comments, dear GNS?
writeaway Jul 11, 2020:
@Steffen I agree and it's all the more reason to ask the client.
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
@ writeaway ... and the client might then even notice that their draft is "deficient".
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
@ Andrew A-ha, now I see where you are coming from - thanks for clarifying.
writeaway Jul 11, 2020:
Ask the client to be sure It would be a shame if the English version isn't correct.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
Cultural difference EN: age only (i.e. point in time)
DE: Lebensjahr (i.e. period/length of time)
Hence the problem encountered and posed by today's asker.
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
I fully agree with your reasoning, Andrew I don't see a cultural difference at work here.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
I am 35 = I've had my 35th birthday but not yet my 36th. I'm wondering if this is a cultural difference?
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
I am 35, I am 36 etc. As a GNS, it would never occur to me to claim "I am 35" before my 35th birthday (on any day before this day, I'd still be 34 (and so and so many days, if you will)). Andrew, this "popular perception" you are referring to is completely alien to me.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
Word people and numbers people As an ENS, I am wondering whether there is a discrepancy in the German phrasing between what is mathematically indisputable (namely the 35th year of life ends on the 35th birthday) and a popular perception that the 35th Lebensjahr is the 365-day period during which you can tell people “I am 35”. We have two esteemed native speakers as proponents of the two interpretations. Definitely a case for a translator’s note.
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
@ Ramey You can take my word for it ;-))
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
Überschritten No, Björn. "Überschritten" may sound odd in this case (I agree with you in respect of the phrasing), but this would basically mean that they have already entered their "36. Lebensjahr" (passed their 35th birthday). Question is whether the 35th birthday itself is included in the "Überschreitung" or not. Splitting hairs, as it were ;-) (and a classic case for a translator's note).
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2020:
PS Not saying I couldn’t be wrong about this. I’m just saying it’s a bad way to state application requirements. There are surely easier ways to say this.

Best
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2020:
@Steffen I don‘t see it this way because I think the phrasing is off. Use 18, not 35; maybe that’ll make it clearer. Had they said people who haven’t vollendet their 18. Lebensjahr (typical phrasing), then they aren’t volljährig yet. Fully agree. But saying they haven’t überschritten it, means to me they aren’t 19 yet. I think it’s badly worded. I did read the d-box entries. Somehow not convinced considering past experience.

Best
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2020:
KÖSTLICH! hahahahahahahahahaha! Word people!
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
@ Björn You seem to be on the wrong track here because the "35. Lebensjahr" ends on the 35th birthday. Applicants can't be 35 yet according to Jo's context. See also the earlier discussion entries.
Jo Bennett (asker) Jul 11, 2020:
Thanks to all of you for a lively discussion! I am now happy that the 35th Lebensjahr / year of life is the one leading up to the 35th birthday. So I think I am clear that on the day of their 35th birthday a competitor is too old to enter the competition. Whereas on the day before their 35th birthday a competitor is eligible because on that day he/she is still 34 years old. I think I am going to go with: "The deadline for applications from candidates, who should not yet have reached their 35th birthday, is ..." But I also take the point that it may be better to split the sentence in two. Thank you. I am constantly amazed at and grateful for the enthusiasm with which ProZ members provide help, ideas and suggestions. :-)
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2020:
Interesting On phone, so no long comment. But means to me they can’t be 36 yet, that is, if you think years only, not days. Intriguing.

Best
Thomas Pfann Jul 11, 2020:
Yes, I think that's it. I would need 35 (or 36?) fingers to confirm beyond any doubt but I think that's it ;-)
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
Lebensjahre Thomas, I am getting confused as well now. If I follow your logic starting with the first year, I get:

Das erste Lebensjahr (beginnt mit der Geburt und) endet mit dem 1. Geburtstag. (Also: Der Geburtstag jährt sich zum ersten Mal.)
Das zweite Lebensjahr endet mit dem 2. Geburtstag.
Das dritte Lebensjahr endet mit dem 3. Geburtstag.

Continue this series, and you get:
Das 35. Lebensjahr endet mit dem 35. Geburtstag.

Or not?
Thomas Pfann Jul 11, 2020:
Das erste Lebensjahr beginnt mit der Geburt That's the same in any language. (It always confuses me as well and to get my head around it I always think of the 'erste Lebensjahr' - which is from birth to the first birthday.)

(Also see what I posted as reference – they phrased it in a few different ways, including the exact earliest possible date of birth.
Steffen Walter Jul 11, 2020:
Lebensjahr The Lebensjahr is the twelve-month period leading up to the respective birthday. In other words, the "35. Lebensjahr" ends on the 35th birthday, as pointed out by Andrew already.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
Lebensjahr Thanks for that, Thomas. The conceptual problem is whether a German Lebensjahr is a birthday or a twelve-month period. I think the asker would like a definitive ruling from a native speaker. For an English reader, a 'year of life' lasts a full 365 days. The 35th year of life ends on the 35th birthday. It is a similar conundrum to counting fence panels and fence posts.
Thomas Pfann Jul 11, 2020:
dürfen The 'dürfen' just states that this a requirement – 'Sie dürfen das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben'.
Lancashireman Jul 11, 2020:
dürfen Thomas, is this redundant or does it bring some sort of added value?
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2020:
Hi Jo I always have to think twice or thrice here, numbers don't like me. But I'm quite certain it's 35 and younger. If they've passed their 35th birthday, then they are 36.

Proposed translations

+8
1 hr
Selected

applicants must be under 35 years of age

simply...
Peer comment(s):
agree Steffen Walter
5 mins
Thank you, Steffen!
agree Teangacha (X) : https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/1205/1015271-age-barrie...
46 mins
Thank you, Teangacha!
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
Thanks, Phil!
agree Cillie Swart : thanks for sharing! I agree.
3 hrs
Thanks, Cillie!
agree Ventnai
3 hrs
Thanks, Ian!
agree Chris Pr
5 hrs
Thanks, Chris!
agree David Hollywood : best and simplest way to put it
9 hrs
Thanks, David!
agree Michele Fauble
1 day 6 hrs
Thanks, Michele!
agree AllegroTrans
4 days
disagree Cilian O'Tuama : (Years later) I'd agree if it said erreicht instead of überschritten.
1270 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Katarina!"
11 mins

those who have yet to pass their 35th birthday (35 and younger)

Always a little tricky since 35 years old is actually the 36th year of life. but hardly anyone considers this.
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Would you really complicate it in this way?
9 days
Something went wrong...
-1
31 mins

who have not yet reached their 35th birthday, may

Pretty sure there should be a comma after haben and before dürfen.
Reference:

https://www.linguee.com/english-german/search?source=auto&query=Lebensjahr+noch+nicht+%C3%BCberschritten+haben+d%C3%BCrfen

Peer comment(s):
disagree Steffen Walter : No. Turning it around, the German sentence says: "Bewerber dürfen das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben."
1 hr
thanks for sharing!
neutral AllegroTrans : Would you really complicate it in this way?
9 days
Something went wrong...
35 mins

Applicants must not exceed the age of 35.

It will look better if you split this up into 2 sentences.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2020-07-11 11:54:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Actually, I think this structure would work:

"The deadline for applicants not exceeding the age of 35 is.."
Peer comment(s):
agree Adrian MM. : perhaps ... must not have passed the age of-- > and the only answer to incorporate the modal verb of 'dürfen'.
5 hrs
Thanks, Adrian. Looks like I may have helped other contributors in formulating their own solutions, which is fine. I think the best 'plain English', not the best 'explain English' solution should get the nod:-)
disagree Klaus Beyer : In anderen Worten: dürfen nicht älter als 35 werden???
1 day 5 hrs
Wouldn't have thought it possible for someone to conclude that from my entry but having seen the discussion I must concede that I was naive.
neutral AllegroTrans : "must not exceed" sounds like something mechanical rather than human beings
9 days
Yet another weird comment..
Something went wrong...
+2
44 mins

open to applicants under 36/up to 35 years of age

[the contest is] open to applicants/musicians under 36 years of age
[the contest is] open to applicants/musicians up to 35 years of age
age limit is 35

Der deutsche Satz wirkt komplizierter als nötig. Ich würde die beiden Informationen vermutlich in zwei Sätze aufteilen: Anmeldeschluss ist. Höchstalter ist 35.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-07-11 12:59:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just adding in what I posted under 'Reference':

An anderer Stelle wird die Altersgrenze für den Wettbewerb, um den es hier vermutlich geht, wie folgt beschrieben:

„Altersgrenze 35“

und

steht Teilnehmern offen, „die nach dem 03.10.1985 geboren wurden“
[Anm.: das Finale des Wettbewerb ist am 3. Oktober 2021, d.h. Teilnehmer, die am Tag des Finales ihren 36. Geburtstag feiern, sind teilnahmeberechtigt]
Peer comment(s):
neutral Steffen Walter : Up to 35 years of age. Under 36 doesn't work because it'd also include those who have already passed their 35th birthday but have not reached their 36th yet (the "36. Lebensjahr" leading up to the 36th birthday is excluded according to the requirement).
56 mins
agree Björn Vrooman : I consider this most helpful because it offers two of the three pieces of the puzzle (the last being Anmeldeschluss). As others have said, this really needs a translator's note.
10 hrs
neutral AllegroTrans : Would you really complicate it in this way?
9 days
The German was overcomplicated (and wrong as it turned out). I would shorten it down to 3-4 words, yes.
agree Cilian O'Tuama : Another Q led me here. Danke für den Hinweis Lman. https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/law-contracts/7...
1270 days
Something went wrong...
1 day 3 hrs

not older than 35 years of age

For the USA, this is how they say it.

From the link:
"Keep in mind: To become a CIA agent, you must be a U.S. citizen and not older than 35 years of age. Furthermore, if you are married, your spouse must be a U.S. citizen as well."

Same usage in the second link.
Reference:

http://www.allcriminaljusticedegrees.com/cia-agent/

http://sanduskycountylive.com/city-of-clyde-looking-to-hire-police-officer-and-dispatcher-p2460-1.htm

Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Maybe in USA but asker is in GB
8 days
Something went wrong...
1 day 5 hrs
German term (edited): das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen

must not have exceeded the age of 35

Hier geht es um nicht um "nicht … haben" => may not have … or must not …
sondern um " nicht … haben dürfen" => may not not have … or must not have …

Also:
die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben =>
who may not yet have passed/exceeded the age of 35

Aber:
die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen =>
who may not have yet passed/exceeded the age of 35

"may not have passed the age of" Ungefähr 3 Ergebnisse (0,94 Sekunden)
"must not yet have passed the age of" 4 Ergebnisse (0,64 Sekunden)
"may not have exceeded the age of" Ungefähr 3 Ergebnisse (0,21 Sekunden)

Aber:
"must not have exceeded the age of" Ungefähr 68.800 Ergebnisse (0,62 Sekunden)

Candidates must not have exceeded the age of twenty years, nor, if members of the University, have been matriculated more than eight Terms.
https://books.google.de/books?id=ZOaz93zCRHYC&pg=PA718&lpg=P...

Applicants must not have exceeded the age of 27.
http://www.european-funding-guide.eu/scholarship/99120570-fr...

In addition, the candidates must not have exceeded the age of 30 …
https://ecaef.org/vernon-smith-prize-2018-award-ceremony/

Age Limit: A candidate must not have exceeded the age of thirty (30) years as on April 30, 2020, i.e., the candidate must have been born on or after May 01, 1990.
https://www.taxscan.in/pfrda-recruiting-law-graduates-and-ca...

Age Limit (as on 29/02/2020): A candidate must not have exceeded the age of 30 years as on February 29, 2020 i.e., the candidate must have been born on or after March 01, 1990.
https://www.taxscan.in/llb-openings-sebi/54510/

AGE LIMIT
Candidate must not have exceeded the age of 30 years as on August 31, 2018.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/sebi-notifies-vaca...

Age Limit (as on 30/04/2020):
A candidate must not have exceeded the age of thirty (30) years as on April 30, 2020, i.e., the candidate must have been born on or after May 01, 1990
https://www.rojgarsamachar.in/2020/06/pfrda-recruitment-2020...

u.s.w.
Zur Berechnung:

Lebensalter (Weitergeleitet von Lebensjahr)
Lebensalter ist in der Umgangssprache und im Recht das Alter, das sich bei einer natürlichen Person von deren Geburtstag bis zum Berechnungszeitpunkt ergibt.
:
Bei der Berechnung des Lebensalters wird der Tag der Geburt jedoch mitgerechnet (§ 187 Abs. 2 Satz 2 BGB). Wer beispielsweise am 10. Oktober 2002 um 17:02 Uhr geboren ist, hat am 9. Oktober 2020 um 24:00 Uhr rechtlich das 18. Lebensjahr vollendet.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensalter
(Anmerkung: er ist 18 geworden)
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

21 mins
Reference:

Altersgrenze 35

An anderer Stelle wird die Altersgrenze für den Wettbewerb, um den es hier vermutlich geht, wie folgt beschrieben:

„Altersgrenze 35“

und

steht Teilnehmern offen, „die nach dem 03.10.1985 geboren wurden“ [Anm.: das Finale des Wettbewerb ist am 3. Oktober 2021, d.h. Teilnehmer, die am Tag des Finales ihren 36. Geburtstag feiern, sind teilnahmeberechtigt]
Note from asker:
In fact, I believe that the context does not make the Bezugsdatum clear, and as the translator I don't feel it is my job to interpret. But I may add a TN.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Steffen Walter : In Jos unmittelbarem Kontext scheint das Bezugsdatum allerdings der Anmeldeschluss zu sein, nicht der Tag des Finales.
1 hr
agree Björn Vrooman
1 hr
agree Ramey Rieger (X) : SO amusing!
2 hrs
disagree Johannes Gleim : Nein, diese nicht mehr. 03.10.1985 + 35 = 03.10.2020. Das erste Lebensalter zählt bis zum Ersten "Geburtstag" (nach 1 Jahr) mit. Siehe https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensalter
1 day 7 hrs
Ganz genau, Johannes, ich stimme dir zu. In diesem speziellen Fall zählt der Geburtstag aber eben doch dazu, d.h. der Satz „Bewerber, die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen“ ist falsch. Darauf können wir uns wohl alle einigen.
agree Lancashireman : I wonder if any of the late-arrival Happy Clickers and 'contributors' (1 day 7hrs!) have taken the trouble to read the extensive debate in the Discussion Box?
1 day 10 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 6 hrs
Reference:

Being 35 means you have been around for a full 35 years and are working on year 36. I suspect, though, that in the vernacular the completed 35 years (wrongly) still qualify you. Only your 36th birthday makes you ineligible. (Wish I had that problem again!)
Something went wrong...
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