| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Choosing *not* to raise baby bilingually socially acceptable? Thread poster: Nicole Y. Adams, M.A.
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Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 13:59
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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Even if you feel comfortable speaking English to grown-ups, in your gut you are still German. If you grew up in Germany you will have lots of children rhymes and stories if you only let them out.
I grew up completely monolingually German, nobody around me spoke any other language except the companion of my aunt, who had been as POW in Britain and according to everyone "spoke excellent English". This Onkel Hans always took me on his knees and read English children books to me when I was th... See more Even if you feel comfortable speaking English to grown-ups, in your gut you are still German. If you grew up in Germany you will have lots of children rhymes and stories if you only let them out.
I grew up completely monolingually German, nobody around me spoke any other language except the companion of my aunt, who had been as POW in Britain and according to everyone "spoke excellent English". This Onkel Hans always took me on his knees and read English children books to me when I was three or four. I liked it very much and still know a lot of words from these sessions. Children brains in this age are like a sponge.
Later I started normal English lessons at school, but of course never would achieve real fluency.
What I want to say it won't do any harm if a child gets influence from a second language early on. There are many parents who put their children into special kindergartens in order to aquire a second language even if they don't speak it themselves.
Your child might later ask you why didn't you teach me any German? Or it might accuse you "Why in haven's sake did you try to teach me that stupid German". You can never do the right thing in education, so relax.
Enjoy your baby!
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vanda Nissen
Australia
Local time: 20:59
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
Linguists may be skeptical, but I have news for you- linguists do not raise children; parents do.
I am a linguist, but I am also a mother, and believe you or not, I DO raise my child:). And I want to repeat myself - I am working within this field, I have been interviewing a lot of bilingual people including children and, sorry to say, I can not call a child fully bilingual if his second language, in my case Russian, is very poor and contains a lot of mistakes. Families where both parents are Russians but who currently live in Sweden (Denmark) have more chances to see their children speaking both languages on a relatively good level, but situation is much worse when one of the parents is not Russian:(
We are not talking about the countires where bilingualism is accepted on the national level as Canada, Luxembourg (and even here being born and raised in these countires does not really mean that you or child will be bilingual), we are talking mostly about one-language countires, and I can say that in this task - raising a bilingual child - there are more challenges than we eariler thought.
| | | | | Poppycock indeed! | Jun 28, 2008 |
Juliana Starkman wrote:
Second, to say that raising a child in more than one language causes personality problems sounds about as well-founded to me as the old belief that autism is caused by a mother rejecting her child. Poppycock, and verging on dangerous.
Linguists may be skeptical, but I have news for you- linguists do not raise children; parents do.
Hear, hear! I have raised two bilingual children (Dutch and English) and they are extremely well-adjusted. I feel just as comfortable speaking English, Spanish or Dutch and spoke English to the children when we lived in the Netherlands and Dutch to them since we have been living in the UK. I would have spoken Spanish too but their father does not speak Spanish and we do not have family in Spanish-speaking countries. I did read to them in Spanish and they watched videos is Spanish. Both children seem to pick up Spanish quiet quickly when we go to Spain. My son will be 18 next month and if you hear him speak English, you'd say he was British (which he is since he was born in the UK) and if you heard him speak Dutch, you'd say he was Dutch. He learnt German at school (which nobody at home speaks) and he is extremely good at it (so I've been told by German speakers).
| | | | | Each parent speak mother tongue | Jun 28, 2008 |
My husband is English and our children are bilingual (Daniel hasn't started speaking yet, though, but Robyn, 3 1/2, speaks bot languages).
My husband hardly speaks any Danish (we live in DK) so he speaks English to the children and they only watch English children's TV and mainly read English children's books. I speak English with my husband.
For us it is easiest that each parent speaks mother tongue to the children - although I should probably speak more English to the... See more My husband is English and our children are bilingual (Daniel hasn't started speaking yet, though, but Robyn, 3 1/2, speaks bot languages).
My husband hardly speaks any Danish (we live in DK) so he speaks English to the children and they only watch English children's TV and mainly read English children's books. I speak English with my husband.
For us it is easiest that each parent speaks mother tongue to the children - although I should probably speak more English to the children, as their (Robyns) Danish is better than her English.
Another common "rule" is one language in the house, another out of the house. ▲ Collapse
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[quote]Nicole Y. Adams, M.A. wrote:
Hello all,
There's been a similar thread recently but I want to put a slightly different slant on it:
My native language is German, my husband's native language is English and we just had our first baby who is now 8 weeks old. Now, most people assume we are raising him bilingually, with me speaking German to him and my husband English.
However, English is my dominant language, speaking German does not come natural to me at all and I find it impossible to speak to my baby in German. I keep trying to force myself to speak German to him but it just does not work. I'd feel like speaking to him in an 'artificial' language and am worried I would not be able to develop a 'natural' relationship with him, as I would constantly sound stilted and 'forced' if I spoke German.
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that it would obviously be a massive advantage if he grew up speaking German as well and I almost feel guilty about speaking to him in English. Saying that, there is no family in Germany with whom he would need to communicate in German, and we are going to relocate to Australia in the near future where employment agencies have told me the demand for German is very low (unless he wants to become a freelance translator of course ). Interestingly, I have a French friend with a British husband who feels exactly the same: She only speaks English to her child as well even though French is her mother tongue but does not come natural to her anymore.
Now I have a couple of questions/observations:
For one I am very surprised, or should I say shocked, at the level of criticism and negative comments I get from friends and acquaintances when they learn that I do not speak German to my baby, especially being a translator myself. It seems to be socially expected and no other choice acceptable, which I find outrageous to be honest. Is it so absurd that I want to speak to him in what comes and feels natural, i.e English? (He's a "sweatheart", not a "Schatz"!)
Secondly, do you think that it would be possible for him to pick up German solely through audio tapes, children's books, DVD's and trips to Germany several times a year? Or is this a lost cause if I do not constantly actively talk to him in the language?
Is anyone else in the same situation who has a different native language than his/her partner but did not raise his/her children bilingually for whatever reason? What have been your experiences?
I look forward to your replies
Nicole
I wish 25 years ago my wife had started speaking Tagalog to our children. Whe wanted them to be "American" and speak native English, so she didn't. Now, the two youngest are living with her in the Philipinnes while I"m working abroad. They go to an international school, so that's not an issue and everyone speaks English. But it would be a lot better if they could communicate with all. An American friend married a Spanis girl with no English. He spoke Spanish fluently. They spoke Spanish with each other, she spoke Spanish to their young daughters, the daughters spoke English with Daddy and with friends, then in school. At 4 and 6 they were pretty much bilingual. I don't see how teaching your child your language, culture and heritage can hurt....like I said above, wish we'd have done it. Do what you feel is right and don't worry about anyone else's opinions. Good luck!
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to me it all boils down to cultural identity. Having lived for a long time in a foreign country, I know how important it is to preserve your own identity. Simply, I want my children to be British first, and have a firm identity, and then take it from there. My children are not bilingual and I don't want them to be. Despite what has been said in this thread, I've seen very few bilingual children who are perfectly bilingual, and - dare I say it - 'well-adjusted'?. They might be able to speak both ... See more to me it all boils down to cultural identity. Having lived for a long time in a foreign country, I know how important it is to preserve your own identity. Simply, I want my children to be British first, and have a firm identity, and then take it from there. My children are not bilingual and I don't want them to be. Despite what has been said in this thread, I've seen very few bilingual children who are perfectly bilingual, and - dare I say it - 'well-adjusted'?. They might be able to speak both languages with native fluency, but the written language is far from perfect. My children are getting all the benefits from being half Italian - going to Italy and sharing a different culture - and will learn it properly when they decide they are ready. My wife is English and we speak Italian to each other. They are like sponges, and are abosrbing the second language readily. Do my children need to be bilingual? Do I need to force another language on them? I don't think so. I do get a lot of criticism from people, but I don't care, because they don't know what they are talking about. I've been there. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Juliana Brown
Israel
Local time: 06:59
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
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| Clarification. | Jun 28, 2008 |
Vanda Nissen wrote:
Linguists may be skeptical, but I have news for you- linguists do not raise children; parents do. I am a linguist, but I am also a mother, and believe you or not, I DO raise my child:). And I want to repeat myself - I am working within this field, I have been interviewing a lot of bilingual people including children and, sorry to say, I can not call a child fully bilingual if his second language, in my case Russian, is very poor and contains a lot of mistakes. Families where both parents are Russians but who currently live in Sweden (Denmark) have more chances to see their children speaking both languages on a relatively good level, but situation is much worse when one of the parents is not Russian:( We are not talking about the countires where bilingualism is accepted on the national level as Canada, Luxembourg (and even here being born and raised in these countires does not really mean that you or child will be bilingual), we are talking mostly about one-language countires, and I can say that in this task - raising a bilingual child - there are more challenges than we eariler thought.
Hi Vanda,
My comment about linguists and parents was meant to point out that when it comes to the crunch, we make our critical choices as parents, not professionals. This is why I say that what ever my personal decision was, I think that Nicole should go with her gut.
Also, I didn't say that a child whose second language is minimal is bilingual. If that were the case, I would describe myself as speaking 6 languages, which I do not. When I say "functionally bilingual", I mean one who understands everything and speaks well for their age level, but perhaps would not be able to write a school essay in that language. Mind you, I know some unilingual 8 year olds who wouldn't win an essay prize....Having worked in education in a school with many multilingual families, I can say that it makes a HUGE difference to confidence and ability when the parents too are well-read and speak well. I am NOT convinced by half measures (I'll use some words of this, that and the other and see what happens).
I have no doubt it would be harder in a country where people see bilingualism as a threat to their "firm cultural identity", but then the issue is not language alone, right? It's also "why don't I have a "regular" name, or when my friends come to eat, why do we have "different" food in the house? It's a slippery slope, and not one that I subscribe to. If I did, we'd be eating MacDonald's in my house and denying a lot of who we really are.
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Juliana Starkman wrote:
I have no doubt it would be harder in a country where people see bilingualism as a threat to their "firm cultural identity", but then the issue is not language alone, right? It's also "why don't I have a "regular" name, or when my friends come to eat, why do we have "different" food in the house? It's a slippery slope, and not one that I subscribe to. If I did, we'd be eating MacDonald's in my house and denying a lot of who we really are.
I feel the need to clarify, because it looks to me like you are twisting my words in your response to Vanda. I said I believed that a child should have a firm identity, and by 'being British', i.e. national identity, I meant a personal and cultural national identity, without any of the right-wing connotations you seem to be implying. It doesn't mean rejecting other cultures, food or whatever, but to have one main identity from which you can - and should - expand your horizons.
[Edited at 2008-06-28 15:13]
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Vanda Nissen
Australia
Local time: 20:59
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
Juliana Starkman wrote:
I have no doubt it would be harder in a country where people see bilingualism as a threat to their "firm cultural identity", but then the issue is not language alone, right? .
Hi Juliana! Well, I go with Giovanni here, cultural identity is a slightly different thing than a regular name (btw, my name is very unusal for Russia but I did not have problems at school) or food preferences. I understand what you mean but I am not sure that you can see things from my point of view. At a certain age children want to know who they are, what nationality they have. One of my Russian respondents told me that she had stopped speaking Russian to her son when other children started avoiding him. They did not like his mother talking Russian to him when they were visiting their place - they simply did not undertand her that is why they did not like it. It is great if one have a possibility to find an international pre-school and school for the kid but if not bilingual children can be treated not nicely in the ordinary kindergartens and schools.
I do not want you to think that I am against raising children bilingually - I personally (as a mother, I agree with you, Juliana, I should stress when I speak as a mother and when I speak as a linguist) think this is a great opportunity for a child but at the same time, as a linguist, I can also see disadvantages of this choice, and I really understand people who choose to raise their children as monolinguals.
| | | | juvera
Local time: 11:59
English to Hungarian
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| Let's rephrase the question | Jun 28, 2008 |
Choosing *not* to raise baby with the input of my mother tongue is socially acceptable?
Well, you are obviously worried about social acceptability, but there were two kinds of social circles were mentioned; your acquaintances, and the child's playmates, schoolmates. One is criticising you for not wanting to teach your child your mother tongue, the other may behave oddly to your child if you do.
Although I think kids don't care that much, and it can be quite useful and a matte... See more Choosing *not* to raise baby with the input of my mother tongue is socially acceptable?
Well, you are obviously worried about social acceptability, but there were two kinds of social circles were mentioned; your acquaintances, and the child's playmates, schoolmates. One is criticising you for not wanting to teach your child your mother tongue, the other may behave oddly to your child if you do.
Although I think kids don't care that much, and it can be quite useful and a matter of pride to be able to communicate with some other people in a language your mates don't understand.
The third problem is bilingualism. That is a very ambitious idea to try to achieve something so ambiguous. Why are we talking about that?
Vanda Nissen wrote:
…one of the languages will be always suppressed by another one
So what? You will always know one subject better in one language that the other, and vice versa.
And that;
…children get very often confused - they start having problems with personality issue…
If that was the only thing causing them having problems with personality issues, life would be easy!
Why don’t we talk about "making him familiar" with the other language? To make him able to develop another language.
That is what we should talk about, and socially, you should have the confidence to do what you want to do. The only thing you should be aware of is the result of your decision.
Not talking to the baby in German means if he wants to, he will have to learn it like any other language, the hard way. He will be an English kid who may learn a language in school, no more, no less.
Talking to him in German means his ears will pick up the different sounds at a time when he can learn to reproduce them faithfully, and develop a capability without too much effort to think in two languages. Whether he will become bilingual, or not, is not that important, and circumstances will dictate.
You have in your power to give him the opportunity to experience another language from the beginning, if you choose not to do it, it is your prerogative.
[Edited at 2008-06-28 15:42] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Juliana Brown
Israel
Local time: 06:59
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| No twist intended... | Jun 28, 2008 |
Giovanni, I apologize if it seemed I was evilly coopting your words. That was not my intention, and I certainly did not intend to bring any "wings" into it, left or right. I understand your choice, though I went with a different one and know many people who have made the same one and are happy as clams. This refers back to my original comment to Nicole to go with her instinct. As a parent you make your choice.
Vanda, you raise a very interesting question which is often ignored. What... See more Giovanni, I apologize if it seemed I was evilly coopting your words. That was not my intention, and I certainly did not intend to bring any "wings" into it, left or right. I understand your choice, though I went with a different one and know many people who have made the same one and are happy as clams. This refers back to my original comment to Nicole to go with her instinct. As a parent you make your choice.
Vanda, you raise a very interesting question which is often ignored. What happens when one is outside the family setting or when others are brought into it? Again, it depends on so many factors, right? In my house the kids get Hebrew from me and Spanish from their father, rain or shine, night or day. Period. Having said that, their friends (all 3 and 5 year olds) have no problem it seems, and some of them actually ASK if I can put on a Spanish or Hebrew DVD for them to watch when they're over, because they think it's neat. Of course, I speak to other kids in English when they're over playing. That works for us, but may not in a different setting. Go know...
As for "knowing" their cultural identity, again, it depends where you are. I happen to be in a place which refers to itself as a mosaic (whether or not it always works), and thus it's quite normal for people to discuss and display their heritage, backgrounds, etc without it making one question their level of belonging. Of course it's not just names and food, but it is ALSO those things which make one different. How many people change their names when they move countries, or adapt them. How many Jaimes become Jim and Petros becomes Pete? I think we'll have to happily disagree on the nationality question, because I think kids need to know as much where they come from as they do what passport they carry. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's up to you but... | Jun 28, 2008 |
considering all of the advantages of being bilingual (see many threads here) then I see it as a great pity to miss this opportunity to give this gift to your child. The opportunity to absorb (rather than actively work hard to learn) another language will never come to that child again. Remember bilinguals find it much easier to learn languages later on!
So, it's your call, but if you ask for opinions on the subject be prepared for people to tell you that your choice is wrong. Otherw... See more considering all of the advantages of being bilingual (see many threads here) then I see it as a great pity to miss this opportunity to give this gift to your child. The opportunity to absorb (rather than actively work hard to learn) another language will never come to that child again. Remember bilinguals find it much easier to learn languages later on!
So, it's your call, but if you ask for opinions on the subject be prepared for people to tell you that your choice is wrong. Otherwise there is no debate, you simply do what you like and tell those who don't agree with you to "stuff it"!"
I'd just say, think twice before throwing away this golden opportunity. ▲ Collapse
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| My family's story over 3 generations | Jun 28, 2008 |
My grandparents - Scottish mother + Swedish father, moved to Sweden early 1930s with 4 year old son, daughter arrives some years later. Told bringing children up bilingually is bad, very bad (the kind of advice you're giving 80 years later - Vanda). They choose to ignore this advice, children grew up, without any noticeable mental problems, and lived happily ever after - one in Sweden, the other in New York.
My parents, - Swedish mum + Scottish/Swedish dad, both grew up mainly in Sw... See more My grandparents - Scottish mother + Swedish father, moved to Sweden early 1930s with 4 year old son, daughter arrives some years later. Told bringing children up bilingually is bad, very bad (the kind of advice you're giving 80 years later - Vanda). They choose to ignore this advice, children grew up, without any noticeable mental problems, and lived happily ever after - one in Sweden, the other in New York.
My parents, - Swedish mum + Scottish/Swedish dad, both grew up mainly in Sweden and had 3 children late 50s and early 60s. All children brought up bilingual (this was by now somewhat acceptable). No mental problems (though I do suffer from occasional depression). One child passed away, one has continued to live in Sweden, one (me) has lived most of her adult life in the UK.
Me - Swedish/Scottish single mum, childhood and teenage years in Sweden, adulthood in UK. Child born early 90s in UK and brought up bilingually (Swedish at home, English at school and everywhere else) , 0-7 in UK, 7-10 in Sweden, 10-> in UK. This child was brought up speaking Swedish at home and his best friend until the age of two was also a Swedish speaker. At two, understanding (but not speaking a single word of) English, he started at an English speaking nursery. My God, should this child be confused according to Vanda's theories.
As consistency is important, I made sure to find my son an English speaking school before moving to Sweden (Rödabergsskolan, Stockholm).
Now aged almost 14, what's the result of this confusing upbringing. A very healthy, intelligent and confident (but obnoxious to his mum) teenager. His linguistic abilities? Verbally and culturally totally fluent in both languages and cultures. Having had all his schooling in English, his written English is very good and slightly better than his Swedish. But only slightly, as Swedish spelling is more "logical" than English. Regarding mental problems - none to report so far.
Linguistically, the most interesting thing is what happened when we moved to Sweden. For the first time in his life he studied "Swedish as a second language" one hour a week. One of the first things he learnt was the basic rule: short vowel - double consonant, long vowel - single consonants. As soon as I noticed that he was transferring this rule to English, I explained that this was a Swedish only rule. After this his English spelling returned to it's normal, almost perfect, self.
Vanda - I notice you live in Skåne - possibly in Malmö (?) Am I correct in assuming that your research subjects are living mainly in Rosengård (a suburb with high immigration and very few native Swedish speakers). If this is the case, as a serious researcher, do you not think that other socio-economic facts might colour your research? Imaging your Russian speaking child and mother in a "posh" part of Malmö, but this time speaking native English. Do you seriously believe that the reaction of others would have been the same?
[Edited at 2008-06-28 20:06]
[Edited at 2008-06-28 21:18]
[Edited at 2008-06-28 22:40] ▲ Collapse
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but when they will be in their thirties and fourties, they will be asking themselves: who really am I? Am I Scottish? Am I Swedish? And they won't find an answer. They won't have an identity. Believe me, it will happen. If I could choose between being bilingual and having a firm identity, I know which one I would go for...
[Edited at 2008-06-29 11:30]
| | | | | Four down one to go | Jun 29, 2008 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
but when they will be in their thirties and fourties, they will be asking themselves: who really am I? Am I Scottish? Am I Swedish? And they won't find an answer. They won't have an identity. Believe me, it will happen. If I could choose between being bilingual and having a firm identity, I know which one I would go for...
Four of us have already already passed that milestone without any major problems.
As for my son, he could of course be the exception that proves the rule... Only time will tell, but for now he's a very grounded and confident young man who decided age 7 that he was English (that's where he was born). But then again, he's also very firmly against people being defined by their national or any other construed identity (yes, he did join me for some lectures in political science a young age).
Now, you're not telling me that him being 50% Italian might pose a problem? If so, I'm really relieved I decided against letting him become trilingual.
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