| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | How to determine your mother tongue? Thread poster: Cristina Golab
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Tatty 
Local time: 12:27
Spanish to English
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| I don't mean to be unconstructive either... | Mar 24, 2006 |
But I have to back John and Amy on this one, just from your short question, English is evidently not your mother tongue. You instinctively know your native language, you're not left wondering. I have met people without any native language, can you imagine that.
| | | | E.LA
Spanish to German
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| bilingual-strong and weak language | Mar 24, 2006 |
Normally kids which grow up in a bicultural environment are considered bilingual, they speak both languages well, but still if you look clearly, you see that they have a strong and a weak language.
Normally the language of the environment is the strong language, though the mother uses at home the other language. And if the kid changes environment, it changes strong and weak language.
And it happens what Heinrich says: If you stay a long time in another country, you can loose ... See more Normally kids which grow up in a bicultural environment are considered bilingual, they speak both languages well, but still if you look clearly, you see that they have a strong and a weak language.
Normally the language of the environment is the strong language, though the mother uses at home the other language. And if the kid changes environment, it changes strong and weak language.
And it happens what Heinrich says: If you stay a long time in another country, you can loose certain abilities of your so called native language - but still it is your native language.
Thus: if somebody grew up in a bicultural environment (for example English mother and living in Spain) you can say you are bilingual and you have the strong language - Spanish and the weak language - English. (but I suppose that a lot of people will not understand it).
The same happens with "fluent", a lot of people say they speak fluent this or that, but you can see a great difference in the quality.
Thus, do what you consider right and be self-confident. I know a lot of native speakers with a lot of errors in their sentences. Native does not mean perfect.
Writeaway talks about acquired languages - well every language is acquired! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | For professional purposes mother tongue is an ambiguos concept | Mar 24, 2006 |
Coming from a land where language proverbially changes every km you travel in any direction, the relevance of mother tongue to the profession of translation is a bit nebulous for me.
What is more important is your level of competency in the languages you work. They may be your mother tongue or a language you acquired at a later stage.
I never heard a word of Hindi or English till I was eight or so. I grew up in a completely Malayalam milieu. After 8 years, my break with... See more Coming from a land where language proverbially changes every km you travel in any direction, the relevance of mother tongue to the profession of translation is a bit nebulous for me.
What is more important is your level of competency in the languages you work. They may be your mother tongue or a language you acquired at a later stage.
I never heard a word of Hindi or English till I was eight or so. I grew up in a completely Malayalam milieu. After 8 years, my break with Malayalam was almost total. My schooling was in an English medium school, but the setting of the school was in a Hindi speaking area. Hindi was one of the languages taught at school. English was the medium of instruction for the other subjects.
At 45 I consider my competency in Hindi or English to be far superior to my competency in Malayalam. It in is the former two languages that I do all my translations, though I do occasionally translate from Malayalam or Gujarati (another acquired language for me) into English or Hindi. But never in the other direction.
To complicate matters further, we are Tamils who have been living in Kerala (where Malayalam is spoken) for several generations. We speak Tamil at home, but none of us are literate in Tamil, as Malyalam has become our defacto mother tongue, though many of you would want to say that, then Tamil is actually my mother-tongue. The truth though is that Tamil is the least known language for me among all the languages I know.
I don't consider myself to be inferior either in my grasp of Hindi or English or in the felicity with which I use these languages to any native speaker of these languages.
The important thing is that you should know the languages in which you work like the back of your hand. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not so complicated | Mar 24, 2006 |
I think it's the language you speak to your mother. As simple as that.
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BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 06:27
English to Spanish
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| You guys should come to Montreal! | Mar 24, 2006 |
I have a coworker who comes from an Italian family, but she was born in Canada and went to school in English. She also speaks French because it's kind of essential living here in the province of Quebec. Now, the thing is: she has an accent in English, she has an accent in Italian and a very strong one in French. It's quite special!
Now, my son goes to school in French, watches TV in English and has English speaking friends, and talks to me in Spanish. He's got a very cute French acc... See more I have a coworker who comes from an Italian family, but she was born in Canada and went to school in English. She also speaks French because it's kind of essential living here in the province of Quebec. Now, the thing is: she has an accent in English, she has an accent in Italian and a very strong one in French. It's quite special!
Now, my son goes to school in French, watches TV in English and has English speaking friends, and talks to me in Spanish. He's got a very cute French accent when he speaks English, a slight Spanish accent when he speaks French, and no accent when he speaks Spanish, but he speaks it worse and worse; he uses Spanish pronunciation but says French or English words, like "la fenza" instead of "el cerco" or "supleAnte" instead of "suplente". I could give you a neverending list of words he makes up in Spanish. I suppose French will become his first language eventually, since he almost has no accent, and Spanish will always be his mother tongue, but I'm sure it won't be the language he will speak best of all!
Regardless of our mother tongues, we (translators, I mean) are all so fortunate to speak two or three languages, aren't we? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Dual native vs bilingual | Mar 24, 2006 |
Hi,
I dont want to say "yes or no" on being native or not but I want to ask bilingual parents:
How much time does your daughter or son spends at home and how much time does he/she spends outside? (Please do not count time in the sleep)
I think the asnwer of this question may be helpful to decide which one is the mother tongue?
Another point/question is for languages with different alphabet other than latine.
How would you consider ... See more Hi,
I dont want to say "yes or no" on being native or not but I want to ask bilingual parents:
How much time does your daughter or son spends at home and how much time does he/she spends outside? (Please do not count time in the sleep)
I think the asnwer of this question may be helpful to decide which one is the mother tongue?
Another point/question is for languages with different alphabet other than latine.
How would you consider nativity of a person who can not write his/her parents language but barely speaks as full of mistakes, but he is perfect in the aquired language in the society where he lives?
Thank you all,
Nizam ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 03:27
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| young age + community of native speakers = native language | Mar 24, 2006 |
Every human being is born with the ability to acquire the language spoken by the community in which he/she is born and raised. At about the age of 11, this natural ability to acquire a language begins to function at a less than optimal level, and any language acquired after this age is unlikely to be learned to a native speaker level in all aspects.
For a person to be considered a native speaker of a language, he/she must have learned it at a young age and as a member of a community... See more Every human being is born with the ability to acquire the language spoken by the community in which he/she is born and raised. At about the age of 11, this natural ability to acquire a language begins to function at a less than optimal level, and any language acquired after this age is unlikely to be learned to a native speaker level in all aspects.
For a person to be considered a native speaker of a language, he/she must have learned it at a young age and as a member of a community of native speakers. This may be the family, the wider community in which he/she lives, or both.
[Edited at 2006-03-25 01:19]
[Edited at 2006-03-25 01:23] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A bit of moderation... and my 2 Euro Cents | Mar 25, 2006 |
Knowing where to draw the line between a professional comment and a personal attack can often be quite difficult. This has been an interesting discussion so far, but can we please ensure that any future comments do not get too personal.
It is not always wise to use someone's errors as a stick to beat them with here on the Forums, since we all tend to hit the send key in haste and regret at leisure occasionally. Thank goodness for the editing facilities here, eh?
... See more Knowing where to draw the line between a professional comment and a personal attack can often be quite difficult. This has been an interesting discussion so far, but can we please ensure that any future comments do not get too personal.
It is not always wise to use someone's errors as a stick to beat them with here on the Forums, since we all tend to hit the send key in haste and regret at leisure occasionally. Thank goodness for the editing facilities here, eh?
Like most kids here her age, my seven year old daughter is fully bilingual Catalan/Spanish and has a good command of English, thanks to my input. However, I don't think she will ever be able to claim the latter as a mother tongue, unless circumstances lead us to spend a few years in an English speaking country, not a likely scenario... (and it would have to be soon while the window for "native" acquisition is still open - physiologically 14 represents that barrier, apparently).
I do share concerns here that a competent command of a language does not equal a native command. That's why I never believed any of those war films where Englishmen dress up as Germans and succesfully penetrate Gestapo headquarters. We all know that ONE wrongly used verb ending or an odd use of a preposition would have given the game away long before the spies had got very far, wouldn't it? ▲ Collapse
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mstkwasa
Local time: 11:27
English to Japanese
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| Mutability of "mother tongue" | Mar 25, 2006 |
The problem with the concept of "mother tongue" is that some determine it biologically - i.e. your "mother tongue" is the language you are born into. Full stop. If we were to follow this argument, it is impossible for change our "mother tongue". This does not seem to accord with direct and indirect experiences of contributors to this forum, especially if "mother tongue" is defined subjectively as the language that one feels most confident and comfortable in. Whether due to migration, education,... See more The problem with the concept of "mother tongue" is that some determine it biologically - i.e. your "mother tongue" is the language you are born into. Full stop. If we were to follow this argument, it is impossible for change our "mother tongue". This does not seem to accord with direct and indirect experiences of contributors to this forum, especially if "mother tongue" is defined subjectively as the language that one feels most confident and comfortable in. Whether due to migration, education, parents speaking different languages or other such reason, the individual's competence, effectiveness and comfortableness in expressing oneself may change from one language to another. It certainly seems to be the case in the migrant communities, second- and more usually third-generation's preferred and most effective language changes from that of his/her ancestors to that of the host (in the UK, English). It is toughest for the "transition generation" which falls between the two languages and become proficient in neither.
Native speakers, of course, get things right most of the time and have an intuitive grasp of the language. Idioms are a case in particular. Yet again, there is agreement, that native-speakers make mistakes, often grammatical. Someone who has acquired another language makes a mistake once every thousand times and perhaps this is a sign that this language is not his/her mother tongue and hence competence in that language. But we probably overlook once in a hundred mistake in (presumed) native-speakers.
Most of the time, there is a close overlap between one's "mother tongue" as variously defined and competence. But if there is a difference between the language that one was born to, the language one feels most effective in and what others think is his/her native language, then what to do? Are not competence and knowledge more important than being "native" in the profession of translation?
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I have posted the following definitions before but I thought it might an idea ot reproduce them.
The term native language "dates from the Middle Ages, when it was widely believed that language is physically inherited, one's birth determining both language and nationality. Because of this association with birth and birthright and the confusion associated with the word native, some linguists consider that the term should, like native speaker, be avoided or used with caution in scholarly work."
Source: "NATIVE LANGUAGE" Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language. Ed. Tom McArthur. Oxford University Press, 1998. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. Oxford University. 4 June 2005 http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Mai n&entry=t29.e821
"The first language is the language in which learners are competent when starting a new language; the second language is another language that is being learned or has been learned to an adequate level. In many countries, a specific L2 is learned, usually at school, for national or international use. English is the second language for many purposes in such countries as India, Nigeria, and Singapore. An L1 may or may not be a learner's mother tongue, because a chronologically first language may not be the functionally first language of adulthood. Under certain conditions, such as migration, an original L2 may become a person's L1 or only language."
Source: "FIRST LANGUAGE" Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language. Ed. Tom McArthur. Oxford University Press, 1998. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. Oxford University. 4 June 2005 http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Mai n&entry=t29.e472
Bilingual: "Having an effectively equal control of two native languages. Thus a minority of people in Wales are bilingual in Welsh and English; many in England are bilingual in English and e.g. Punjabi. A bilingual community, as in Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, is one in which bilingualism is normal.
Loosely or more generally, in some accounts, of people or communities that have two or more different languages, whether or not control is effectively equal and whether or not more than one is native. Bilinguals in the ordinary sense are then variously called 'eambilingual' or 'equilinguaf', or are qualified as 'full', 'true', 'ideal', or 'balanced' bilinguals."
"bilingual" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics. P. H. Matthews. Oxford University Press, 1997. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. Oxford University. 4 June 2005 http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Mai n&entry=t36.e333 ▲ Collapse
| | | | sarahl (X)
Local time: 03:27
English to French
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| Interesting! | Mar 25, 2006 |
Berni Armstrong wrote:
to be soon while the window for "native" acquisition is still open - physiologically 14 represents that barrier, apparently).
Berni,
Can you point me to any recent research? You say the window closes at age 14, Michele seems to think it closes at age 11, I remember reading age 5 in another thread. Is anyone conducting serious research on the subject? I would really like to know more about this.
| | | | | My figure is half remembered.... | Mar 25, 2006 |
from some research paper I read way back in my University days (Just realised that was 30 years ago now...gasp...).
I remember it talked about "physiological and neural permanence" which it claimed set in around 14 and which few ever succeed in breaking after that. So, virtually no-one who learns a language later in life will ever manage a "native" accent or perfect grammar, etc. Sorry, I cannot be more specific as to author, etc.
Don't know of any recent research, but ... See more from some research paper I read way back in my University days (Just realised that was 30 years ago now...gasp...).
I remember it talked about "physiological and neural permanence" which it claimed set in around 14 and which few ever succeed in breaking after that. So, virtually no-one who learns a language later in life will ever manage a "native" accent or perfect grammar, etc. Sorry, I cannot be more specific as to author, etc.
Don't know of any recent research, but I bet there is a lot out there on the web. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 03:27
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| critical period | Mar 25, 2006 |
sarahl wrote:
You say the window closes at age 14, Michele seems to think it closes at age 11, I remember reading age 5 in another thread.
I should have said that the end of the "critical period" (the linguistic term) for learning a native language begins around the age of 11+. There are individual differences and the critical period may last until maybe 14-15.
[Edited at 2006-03-26 08:55]
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | An interesting theory... | Mar 26, 2006 |
I have an interesting theory (my own, not substantiated by any research, but quite plausible) regarding why Europe-based translators (as evidenced by the postings in this thread) are so obsessed and inflexible regarding their views about mother tongue.
My thesis is that this has a lot to do with the way the history of Europe unfolded in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and how aggressive nation-states based on linguistic identities emerged in Europe then. These nation state... See more I have an interesting theory (my own, not substantiated by any research, but quite plausible) regarding why Europe-based translators (as evidenced by the postings in this thread) are so obsessed and inflexible regarding their views about mother tongue.
My thesis is that this has a lot to do with the way the history of Europe unfolded in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and how aggressive nation-states based on linguistic identities emerged in Europe then. These nation states were filled with animosity and hatred for their neighbouring nation-states and were always at war with each other. They later carried over their hate to their colonies (in India the Dutch, the Portuguese, the French and the English fought bitterly for the spoils of the disintegrating Mugal Empire and eventually the English emerged victorious) and the grand finale of this animosity was of course the two vicious "World" Wars that the nation states of Europe fought among themselves and that greatly debilitated all of them. Soviet Union lost 20 million people in the Second War. The wastage of human beings on the other camp such as Germany, Austria and Italy must have been equally high.
Because of two centuries (or more) of linguistically drawn nation states, the speakers of European languages got compartmentalized into mutually exclusive geographical areas with very little linguistic interactions with other languages. The result was that most Europeans grew up with an overwhelming command over the official language of their nation and little or no command over any other language. A necessary corollary of this situation was that mono-lingualism became much more common in Europe than in, say, India, where linguistic bifurcation has not gone ahead to such a ridiculous extent as in Europe. Here speakers of different languages mix and mingle freely and many people have competency in many languages. Here bi or multi lingualism is more the norm than mono-lingualism.
The current day Europe is trying to reintegrate politically and undo the damages done to the European psyche by two centuries of aggressive nationalism, but it will take several more decades for the scars to be completely wiped out and for Europeans to grow up psychologically more normal, like the people in other parts of the world.
Dear posters to this thread, reflect on this thesis and tell me what you think of it.
[Edited at 2006-03-26 12:24] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 03:27
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| What a difference a year makes. | Mar 26, 2006 |
Henry Kissinger was 15 years old when his family immigrated to the US. His brother Walter was 14. Henry Kissinger speaks English with a foreign accent. His brother Walter does not.
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 12:27
Multiplelanguages
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| acquired languages | Mar 26, 2006 |
E.LA wrote:
Writeaway talks about acquired languages - well every language is acquired!
Yes, exactly. In the area of Psycholinguistics:
First Language Acquisition: the course which studies the theory and practice of Native Language (NL)/Native speaker (NS) / Mother Tongue language acquisition
Second Language Acquisition: the course which studies the theory of learning languages, mainly after the formative year period and through classroom teaching and immersion type techniques for a language which was not acquired in the environment while growing up.
Several types of practitioner teaching certificates and degrees along these lines are:
TESL (Teaching English as a Second Language), TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages), FLE (Français Langue Etrangère), etc.
There are certainly better definitions of these 1st and 2nd Language Acquisition in course catalogs available through linguistics depts at universities. These can be found with any Internet search engine.
Jeff
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Jeff Allen, PhD
http://www.geocities.com/jeffallenpubs/
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