The hazards of pronouncing foreign names Thread poster: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
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Another very interesting article published on “The Economist” on May 11th 2023. Even though its focal point is not translation, ultimately it also affects us…
“The hazards of pronouncing foreign names on air
Trying too hard to get it right is better than not trying at all
A journalist named Antonio Mendoza—played by Jimmy Smits, an actor with Puerto Rican heritage—walks into a new job at a television station. The room of (non-Hispanic) old hands... See more Another very interesting article published on “The Economist” on May 11th 2023. Even though its focal point is not translation, ultimately it also affects us…
“The hazards of pronouncing foreign names on air
Trying too hard to get it right is better than not trying at all
A journalist named Antonio Mendoza—played by Jimmy Smits, an actor with Puerto Rican heritage—walks into a new job at a television station. The room of (non-Hispanic) old hands begin discussing “our coverage of Nicaragua”, with a preposterously Spanish pronunciation of the country’s name. Someone offers Antonio “enchiladas”, again with an absurdly overdone Spanish accent. Another brags that he learned to love Latino food in “Los Angeles” in the same vein.
Antonio begins to get irritated, and asks, “What do you call the kind of storm you get with high winds and a big funnel cloud?” “A tor-NAH-do, why?” And on it goes. The sketch from “Saturday Night Live” is considered a bit
of a classic.
But it is not just comedy. Viewers and listeners of broadcast journalism write in with genuine annoyance when they notice journalists saying names of the places and people they cover as if they were natives. The same scorn adheres to the gap-year traveller just back from “Barthelona” or “Budapesht”. Some think it is an emerging trend, perhaps even a cousin to leftish virtue-signalling.
This, however, is a long-standing gripe. That “Saturday Night Live” sketch originally aired in 1990. The problem has recurred ever since for a simple reason: finding a perfect solution for pronouncing foreign names is not always easy. A reporter working in another country and fluent in its language might have heard prominent names (the president, the capital, etc) pronounced in English many times. But they may have heard of smaller places or less familiar names only in the local language.
That means that when speaking English, they naturally tend to use the only pronunciation they have heard. Listeners who would prefer a “natural” English pronunciation are really asking for the journalist to devise a new and unaccustomed one, overriding the most comfortable version. In such cases, journalists using native-like pronunciations are not really being accused of trying too hard. They are, in effect, decried for not trying hard enough, by avoiding the extra effort to make foreign names sound English.
This is to say nothing of the fact that, though some foreign sounds are easy to adapt to English equivalents, others have no close analogue. This widens the gap between the only two options: an English-inflected pronunciation that sounds nothing like the original, or an accurate one by foreign standards that gives rise to accusations of swottery, or even snobbery.
For example, the last syllable of the surname of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, sounds like ohn, only without the tongue quite touching the teeth as with a usual n-sound. (It is in fact a nasalised vowel, an oh-sound made with the air coming from the nose.) English has nothing particularly close. This leaves a few bad options. Pronouncing “Macron” as though it were English, rhyming with “micron” (with first-syllable stress, too) distorts the name considerably. And if you pronounce the -on as French, you might find it odd to use an English-style -r- in the middle of the name, and so adopt the uvular French one. Now you are back to a gap-year accent, open to criticism for showing off.
Attempts at authentic native pronunciation can go wrong, too. Ukraine has asked that its capital be called Kyiv, as in the Ukrainian language, and not Kiev, as in Russian (and, heretofore, in English). Many reporters want to show they are on team Kyiv, and pronounce the name as unlike “Kiev” as possible, coming out with “Keev”. But that isn’t quite right, either. Like “Kiev”, Kyiv in Ukrainian is properly pronounced with two vowels back to back. But they are something like the i in “fish” followed by the first e in “Steve”. This unusual combination doesn’t exist in English, and so many outsiders mangle it.
As “Keev” hints, there really is such a thing as trying too hard, so getting the wrong result by any standard, whether that of native accuracy or natural English. Barack Obama liked to showcase his worldliness; the former president pronounced “Pakistan” as Pakistanis do, with two broad a’s (as in “father”). But he did the same with the a in “Copenhagen”, which is not how Copenhageners say it in English. (The Danish “Koebenhavn” is another matter.) Thus he unwittingly called the city by its German name.
Still, trying your hand at foreign pronunciations is a sign of openness and accommodation. It is often impossible to please everyone. In a world torn by national antagonisms, it is no great crime to make an effort. Save your scorn for those who do not try at all.”
Enjoy and have a wonderful weekend!
Teresa ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:17
Member (2008)
Italian to English
So how should I pronounce "Borges"?
And why do my Brazilian friends sound like "Londoners born and bred" when they pronounce the letter L?
( as in the pronunciation of the word "Brazil" which they pronounce "Brazio")
[Edited at 2023-05-13 10:37 GMT]
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To say it correctly it should be BOR (like in born) + GES (like in allonges), but when I was living in Belgium it was pronounced quite often as Borgès or even Borjes (with a Spanish accent). In French it’s much more difficult to pronounce correctly my last name (Almeida), but not in English as you have an Almeida Street and an Almeida Theatre. I’ve been told that they have been named after the Portuguese town of Almeida, but I have no idea why…
| | | | | Trying too hard should make it sound funny | May 13, 2023 |
Or ugly. I've never heard English speakers trying too hard though. Maybe they can do it gracefully, who knows. I suggest the native sounds of English can be modified sometimes. I'd probably do it myself when pronouncing, e. g., a French place name I'm not sure how to pronounce in English. But saying "Paris" the French way when speaking English is too much, especially if you can't parler gras (I can). Unlike (what I think is) the majority of native English speakers, I can pronounce the nam... See more Or ugly. I've never heard English speakers trying too hard though. Maybe they can do it gracefully, who knows. I suggest the native sounds of English can be modified sometimes. I'd probably do it myself when pronouncing, e. g., a French place name I'm not sure how to pronounce in English. But saying "Paris" the French way when speaking English is too much, especially if you can't parler gras (I can). Unlike (what I think is) the majority of native English speakers, I can pronounce the name of Ukraine's capital the Ukrainian way, but there's no way I'll do it when speaking Russian (unless I'm making a joke), or English for that matter (because it'll sound ridiculous). When someone with a proper Russian accent pronounces names of places or people with an American accent (which often happens with folks who have lived in the US for a long time), this jars on my ears ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 19:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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I think the owners or editors-in-chief of a radio or television news station should ask themselves whether correct pronunciation is part of ethical journalism, and if so, then they should have a committee whose job it is to decide how to pronounce names that appear in news stories, and coach the news readers. Two newsreaders at the same station will have two different accents (unless that, too, was considered unethical journalism and consequently only people with all the same accents got hired)... See more I think the owners or editors-in-chief of a radio or television news station should ask themselves whether correct pronunciation is part of ethical journalism, and if so, then they should have a committee whose job it is to decide how to pronounce names that appear in news stories, and coach the news readers. Two newsreaders at the same station will have two different accents (unless that, too, was considered unethical journalism and consequently only people with all the same accents got hired), but is it okay for them to pronounce a foreign name in two different ways that can't be explained away as a quirk of their accents?
That said, the above usually applies to personal names only, and not place names. Place names are special because place names are translated (or transliterated), whereas personal names are not (they are, at worst, mispronounced). However, the author makes a good point: if one pronunciation has become common in the local area, at what point does the station no longer have the right to insist on correcting it? This is also true of US vs UK pronunciation. Should a UK station be mindful not to adopt US pronunciations of words that UK news readers already have a different pronunciation of? Take Pakistan: CNN says pack-ee-stan but BBC says pah-kee-stahn. Ditto Iran -- CNN says eye-ran but BBC says ee-rahn. ▲ Collapse
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Some Russian words are a little tricky when used within a different language.
If I said that I’m reading DAstAevskj and TAlstoj, and that I visited the ErmitaSH museum and the BAlshoi theatre when talking to other Italians, they would think that I got two teeth extracted at the dentist’s and lost the ability to speak properly.
So I lay low and pronounce those words the way they are generally pronounced in my language…
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Samuel Murray wrote:
I think the owners or editors-in-chief of a radio or television news station (...) should have a committee whose job it is to decide how to pronounce names that appear in news stories, and coach the news readers.
Some broadcasters have had such 'committees' for many years. See, for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/pronunciation_unit
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 13:17
Japanese to English
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| foreign names | May 14, 2023 |
Not forgetting the British pronunciation of Los Angeles: "Los An je leeze".
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As noted already for the case of Kyiv, it adds a new dimension when languages have different alphabets.
The island where I live is called Evia, but it's often written as Euboea. That's nothing more than a letter-by-letter transcription of the Greek spelling, Εύβοια, with the curious substitution of an 'e' for the 'ι'. The Greek pronunciation is Evia, or to be absolutely precise, Evvia, and it is somet... See more As noted already for the case of Kyiv, it adds a new dimension when languages have different alphabets.
The island where I live is called Evia, but it's often written as Euboea. That's nothing more than a letter-by-letter transcription of the Greek spelling, Εύβοια, with the curious substitution of an 'e' for the 'ι'. The Greek pronunciation is Evia, or to be absolutely precise, Evvia, and it is sometimes written that way, too.
But anybody who pronounces it you-bo-ah, or you-bee-ah may have trouble getting here. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 20:17
Member
English to Turkish
| A clever solution | May 14, 2023 |
Turkish white goods manufacturer Arçelik goes by the name Beko in Europe, and especially in the UK. Doubtless to avoid anal sex associations that the pronunciation of its original name in English calls to mind.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 20:17
Member
English to Turkish
| Sam Peckinpah | May 14, 2023 |
Legendary director Sam Peckinpaugh puts the BBC presenter in his place on the Spanish pronunciation of the name Garcia (6:46 - 7:02). He boozes away the entire interview. What an absolute legend.. They don't make 'em like that anymore...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNIcjQF4wDQ
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:17
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Baran Keki wrote:
Turkish white goods manufacturer Arçelik goes by the name Beko in Europe, and especially in the UK. Doubtless to avoid anal sex associations that the pronunciation of its original name in English calls to mind.
Leonhard Fuchs is mainly known as the third of the 'founding fathers' of Botany, after Otto Brunfels and Jerome Bock. The plant Fuchsia gets its name from him but the prudish English pronounce it wrongly ("Fiuscia") so that the beginning of it doesn't sound like a naughty word.
[Edited at 2023-05-14 14:55 GMT]
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Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
Michael Newton wrote:
Not forgetting the British pronunciation of Los Angeles: "Los An je leeze".
Once, I heard someone pronounce it as “lozenges” and I can’t unhear it.
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 13:17
Japanese to English
+ ...
| foreign names | May 16, 2023 |
I once heard another variant: "Los angle leeze"
| | | | | When they don't try | May 17, 2023 |
In university, we had an American teacher. He was teaching "clever business English." I remember him telling us why the US is the world's greatest country (simple answer: GDP). "Poo-zhoh, who cares," said he, opening our eyes to the fact that whatever a country like France could achieve in the field of carmaking didn't matter much. His face was full of hubris. It was back at the time when my department was called the Russian-American Graduate School of Management, before the time certain ... See more In university, we had an American teacher. He was teaching "clever business English." I remember him telling us why the US is the world's greatest country (simple answer: GDP). "Poo-zhoh, who cares," said he, opening our eyes to the fact that whatever a country like France could achieve in the field of carmaking didn't matter much. His face was full of hubris. It was back at the time when my department was called the Russian-American Graduate School of Management, before the time certain events began at the turn of the centuries, which led our management to rename it as simply the "International Graduate School of Management"
[Edited at 2023-05-17 14:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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