I forgot to issue an invoice - Is there a time limit? (French company) Thread poster: Ann Cheah
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Ann Cheah 
Malaysia
Member (2017)
English to Malay
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Amidst the pandemic and everything going on, I now realized I have an invoice to send since 2021 (almost 2 years ago).
The client's invoice system works in a way where they send you a notification of a PO and you have to accept it then invoice.
I had overlooked this email (a few) and did not accept the POs in time. When contacted they replied:
"PO were issued under a platform that we don’t work with anymore since the beginning of 2022, there is no possibility to retr... See more Amidst the pandemic and everything going on, I now realized I have an invoice to send since 2021 (almost 2 years ago).
The client's invoice system works in a way where they send you a notification of a PO and you have to accept it then invoice.
I had overlooked this email (a few) and did not accept the POs in time. When contacted they replied:
"PO were issued under a platform that we don’t work with anymore since the beginning of 2022, there is no possibility to retrieve them nor check any detail.
Moreover, the finance department does not treat any PO older than a year, there is nothing that we can do in this situation, I am sincerely sorry."
The PO notification has all the details (job description, amount, date etc.). I believe the French Limitation Act allows 2 - 6 years to pursue a debt. Anyone been in a similar situation or have any advice on how to proceed?
TIA. ▲ Collapse
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Only if you signed or otherwise accepted any conditions that limit how long after delivery you can invoice can the agency refuse to pay if the statutory limit (5 years, I believe) has not been exceeded. Some agencies mention such limits in the conditions they ask us to accept.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Serbian to English
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| Their dishonesty is the problem | Apr 11, 2023 |
They wouldn't dream of trying that kind of tricks on a French company. But someone on another continent looks like an easy target.
If they sent you a text and you sent them back the translation - there is a contract, PO or not, and they owe you for the service. Technical details CAN NOT override legal obligations, nor a contract can override a law. Never mind that I have a strong suspicion that they have a legal obligation to keep all information related to their business for... See more They wouldn't dream of trying that kind of tricks on a French company. But someone on another continent looks like an easy target.
If they sent you a text and you sent them back the translation - there is a contract, PO or not, and they owe you for the service. Technical details CAN NOT override legal obligations, nor a contract can override a law. Never mind that I have a strong suspicion that they have a legal obligation to keep all information related to their business for years - so "our computer swallowed it" is about as convincing as kids saying "I've done my homework, but my dog eat it".
You are getting close to the time limit for invoicing your services, which is certainly at least 2 years in your case.
La facturation peut se faire tant que la prescription n’est pas acquise. Cette dernière est généralement de dix ans en matière contractuelle, mais il existe de nombreuses exceptions à deux ans s’il s’agit d’assurances privées ou à cinq ans pour les assurances sociales, les impôts, les redevances périodiques, les loyers, les actions des artisans pour leur travail, des marchands en détail pour leurs fournitures, des médecins et autres gens de l’art, des avocats, des notaires, notamment.
https://www.frc.ch/delai-de-prescription/
Send them as quickly as possible an invoice in a way that you have a rock solid proof they received it, requesting immediate payment - like 7 days (they already got 2 years free credit on what they owe you).
All that assuming that in case of litigation you can prove that you have done the work ... by ignoring requests of the kind "delete everything after you delivered the translation". ▲ Collapse
| | | | ATIL KAYHAN
Türkiye
Local time: 11:58
Member (2007)
Turkish to English
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I think it may help to know the exact amount on the invoice in this case because you may have to go through some steps to retrieve that amount.
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We can't really apply Swiss law in France. It's the French Code de commerce we need.
Article L110-4:
I.-Les obligations nées à l'occasion de leur commerce entre commerçants ou entre commerçants et non-commerçants se prescrivent par cinq ans si elles ne sont pas soumises à des prescriptions spéciales plus courtes.
So you have five years to claim debt arising out of a commercial transaction unless a special, shorter limit applies.
<... See more We can't really apply Swiss law in France. It's the French Code de commerce we need.
Article L110-4:
I.-Les obligations nées à l'occasion de leur commerce entre commerçants ou entre commerçants et non-commerçants se prescrivent par cinq ans si elles ne sont pas soumises à des prescriptions spéciales plus courtes.
So you have five years to claim debt arising out of a commercial transaction unless a special, shorter limit applies.
According to the French Ministère de l'Intérieur, contractual documents must be retained for at least five years: https://www.demarches.interieur.gouv.fr/professionnels/quels-delais-conservation-documents-entreprises
So, as Daryo says, it is no excuse that they have migrated to other software without preserving the documents they are legally obliged to preserve. Then they will just have to accept your evidence.
I lived 15 years in France and unfortunately found that people, authorities and companies frequently tried to neglect their responsibilities and duties, so I wouldn't say that this is related to the translator's foreign jurisdiction. It's just how things are too often in France. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Josep Vives (X)
Spain
Local time: 10:58
English to Spanish
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| It depends on the agency and the conditions you have signed for in their collaboration agreement | Apr 11, 2023 |
I have seen agencies that won't accept invoices more than 6 months old, while others don't specify any time limit. It depends on what you agreed.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Serbian to English
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| At the risk of repeating myself ... | Apr 12, 2023 |
Josep Vives wrote:
I have seen agencies that won't accept invoices more than 6 months old, while others don't specify any time limit. It depends on what you agreed.
Any contract or part of contract that is contrary to the law is null (or in plain-speak: will be completely ignored by the judge in case of litigation) - as French law applies to this contract, the agency can put whatever they want in their Terms and Conditions to bamboozle those who will take it at face value - the law STILL applies and the time limit in FRANCE for invoicing is 5 years. The agency has no say in that, whatsoever - law overrides any contract - that applies in any country where there's the rule of law.
Or possibly only 2 years if some exception applies - so I wouldn't delay sending them the invoice.
My mistake for using a Swiss site. Using French sites:
(1) there no time-limit for sending an invoice, as long as you can prove that the goods/services have been delivered. (see the part in my previous post about NOT "deleting everything" before being paid in full ...)
Existe-t-il un délai maximum pour facturer la réalisation d'une prestation ?
Rédaction netpme, publié le 06/12/2012 à 00:35:47
La réponse de la rédaction :
Il n’existe pas de délai maximum. Supposons qu’une entreprise ait oublié de facturer une prestation effectuée il y a deux ans : elle peut établir sa facture à condition de détenir toutes les preuves justifiant que cette prestation n’avait jamais été facturée auparavant.
https://www.netpme.fr/question-archive/existetil-un-delai-maximum-pour-facturer-la-realisation-d-une-prestation/
BUT
(2) there is a time-limit for recovering the debt, counted from the date the goods/services were delivered, (not the date of invoicing).
Attention à ne pas oublier de facturer !
Tous les professionnels, quelle que soit leur activité, peuvent oublier de facturer une prestation réalisée.
Ces fâcheux oublis peuvent avoir des conséquences juridiques encore plus fâcheuses !
En effet, dans un arrêt du 26 février 2020, la Cour de cassation a jugé que le point de départ de la prescription d’une action en paiement courait, non pas à compter de l’établissement des factures, mais à compter de l’achèvement des prestations.
Dans cette affaire, la facture a été établie tardivement et la demande en paiement a été déclarée prescrite et donc irrecevable.
http://sibelius-avocats.fr/attention-a-ne-oublier-de-facturer/
[Edited at 2023-04-12 15:27 GMT]
| | | | William Bowley
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Spanish to English
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I suggest politely contacting them again to request that they reopen the job for invoicing or whatever the equivalent is on their system. Ask them to escalate to senior management if necessary.
There is no real reason for them to refuse payment - they have your work, for which they have an obligation to pay you. It's as simple as that. Some companies will try to unilaterally impose their own terms on you, to the effect of "after x amount of time, we have no obligation to pay", becau... See more I suggest politely contacting them again to request that they reopen the job for invoicing or whatever the equivalent is on their system. Ask them to escalate to senior management if necessary.
There is no real reason for them to refuse payment - they have your work, for which they have an obligation to pay you. It's as simple as that. Some companies will try to unilaterally impose their own terms on you, to the effect of "after x amount of time, we have no obligation to pay", because this strategy saves them money. When they take this option rather than settling payment, they are not worth working with again. ▲ Collapse
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I’ve never been in that situation, but what I'd do depends very much on my relationship with the client (is it a long-standing customer or a one-off?), on the contract signed (what does it say?) and on the amount itself (is it a small job or a large one?). Some of my clients send an email at the end of each year asking me to invoice everything until the x January.
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 10:58
Italian to English
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| Just keep banging on about it | Apr 16, 2023 |
I agree that persistence works. Also keep cc-ing the TMs involved or mentioning it to them if they contact you for work. Accounts people can be hard-nosed but this approach conflicts with TMs' need for good translator relations.
Sometimes these problems arise with agencies I work with frequently. One way to deal with them is to add bonuses/discounts in upcoming invoices.
I'm not sure, though, that companies can derogate from the law in contracts. You can't normally si... See more I agree that persistence works. Also keep cc-ing the TMs involved or mentioning it to them if they contact you for work. Accounts people can be hard-nosed but this approach conflicts with TMs' need for good translator relations.
Sometimes these problems arise with agencies I work with frequently. One way to deal with them is to add bonuses/discounts in upcoming invoices.
I'm not sure, though, that companies can derogate from the law in contracts. You can't normally sign away your basic labour rights. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | And rate them | Apr 16, 2023 |
Tony Keily wrote:
I agree that persistence works. Also keep cc-ing the TMs involved or mentioning it to them if they contact you for work. Accounts people can be hard-nosed but this approach conflicts with TMs' need for good translator relations.
You can't normally sign away your basic labour rights.
I've had the same experience in France, i.e. that if you keep pestering those who stubbornly refuse to carry out their duties, they may end up concluding that the repeated pestering is more of a nuisance than simply doing their job.
Labour rights are for employees. We're not.
And do not forget to rate them in the Proz Blue Board and, if you are subscribed, Payment Practices, mentioning the refusal to pay.
It would be good to hear from the original poster, by the way.
| | | | Arianne Farah
Canada
Local time: 04:58
Member (2008)
English to French
| I've been there... | Apr 24, 2023 |
It's one of the steepest learning curves when you're a freelance translator - you put all your energy into finding clients and delivering a good product, bookkeeping seems like the least of your worries.
I mended my ways more than a decade ago and now have a dedicated accounting & bookkeeping day once a month (usually the last Friday of the month).
Chase the debt. It's your fault you didn't invoice promptly, but that doesn't negate the debt. If you run out of options an... See more It's one of the steepest learning curves when you're a freelance translator - you put all your energy into finding clients and delivering a good product, bookkeeping seems like the least of your worries.
I mended my ways more than a decade ago and now have a dedicated accounting & bookkeeping day once a month (usually the last Friday of the month).
Chase the debt. It's your fault you didn't invoice promptly, but that doesn't negate the debt. If you run out of options and the debt is high enough, look into a collections agency - I've had stellar results both times I used one - they're like a terrier worrying a bone - if there's assets to be had and they think they can collect, they won't let up.
If it's not a large amount, I don't know about French law, but in Canada (and I believe the US), you can officially forgive and write off a debt, however that then becomes taxable income for the company whose debt was forgiven (" forgiveness of a trade debt in the same taxation year in which it was incurred is required to be included in computing the debtor's income for that year under the general rules for computing profit from a business or property") and if you tip off the tax authorities that you have officially written off the debt and you have reason to believe it was not included in the declared taxable income, you may trigger an audit. So a quick email saying that your next step will be to officially forgive the debt, write it off as a capital loss, and report the change to the proper tax authorities which may trigger a review of their books could do the trick - even if they're 100% above board, an audit is expensive. ▲ Collapse
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