| Număr de pagini: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Hourly rates like any other industry service Inițiatorul discuției: Maria-da-Fé Albuquerque
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Marina Taffetani 
Italia
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2013)
din germană în italiană
+ ...
| Let me just give you an example of the reasoning behind the need for hourly rates | Apr 25, 2023 |
I've just come across this page, which is actually about copywriters, although IMO what it says can be applied to translators as well: https://www.procopywriters.co.uk/help-advice/freelancing/suggested-rates-for-hiring-copywriters/ Just scroll down to the end of the page and you will find a section titled "Pricing by the word". I will copy i... See more I've just come across this page, which is actually about copywriters, although IMO what it says can be applied to translators as well: https://www.procopywriters.co.uk/help-advice/freelancing/suggested-rates-for-hiring-copywriters/ Just scroll down to the end of the page and you will find a section titled "Pricing by the word". I will copy it here for clarity's sake:
For most copywriting jobs, we discourage pricing by the word, for the following reasons:
Pricing by the word positions copywriting as a commodity rather than a professional service. We believe that copywriters offer their clients far more than just words on a page, and that the way they are paid should reflect this.
Per-word pricing is often used to negotiate unfair prices. Some rates offered in the marketplace, if converted into hourly rates in a realistic way, would be below the UK minimum wage. A copywriter working ‘full time’ at a content mill would earn less than £5000 per year.
Typical per-word prices are for ‘writing only’. They do not take account of any of the factors listed above that affect the time and effort required to complete a copywriting project. Therefore, copywriters are incentivised to work too quickly, which can lead to content that is factually inaccurate, badly written, poorly edited or otherwise substandard. At the same time, copywriters are discouraged to add value through client discussion, research and reflection.
Per-word prices encourage quantity over quality. Five hundred words, or even five, might be far more effective than 5000. When you pay per word, you risk ending up with more words than you need. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stepan Konev
Federaţia Rusă
Local time: 15:26
din engleză în rusă
| Most translators and agencies use source words to measure their work | Apr 25, 2023 |
Marina Taffetani wrote:
When you pay per word, you risk ending up with more words than you need. Still not reasonable. You can easily fix it by counting your scope of work based on source words.
On the other hand, when you pay per hour, you risk ending up with more hours than it really takes to complete a job because you can't keep an eye on the translator who can drink coffee, have 5-minute breaks every 10 minutes, fritter away their time and do their best to deliver the work as long as possible. Unlike source words or characters, you can't control that.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 16:46 GMT]
| | | | Marina Taffetani
Italia
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2013)
din germană în italiană
+ ...
| Technical vs. marketing translation | Apr 25, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Any translator with some experience has eventually a word rate that reflects his/her hourly rate. It's the only thing that makes sense financially. Personally I know perfectly well how many words per hour I have to translate/edit/post-edit on average and how many hours per day, week and month I have to translate to reach my financial goals. If that would ever become a problem, then I guess it's time to raise my rates.
I think what you say makes much more sense for technical translation. On the other hand, I think your reasoning doesn't work that well when it comes to marketing translation. I do both and let me tell you, I know exactly how many words per hour I can translate for an automotive text, but I wouldn't know that for a product listing on an ecommerce website. The same amount of words could take me half an hour or two hours, depending how much creativity I need to put in, how well I know the product (for instance, I may know hair dryers perfectly well, while I might not know much about beard care products), whether or not I need to do SEO, etc.
| | | | | Reason for hourly rate to be more fair or reasonable | Apr 25, 2023 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
I can't see why hourly rate is much more fair or reasonable than that based on word count.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 13:12 GMT]
Scenario:
A client of a certain area of expertise (let's say, Veterinary) hands us over a 500-word text for translation.
We normally translate 500 words in 1 hour.
We charge this client by the word.
It takes us 1 hour to do this task.
Our per-word rate is based on what we consider our hour of work is worth.
This time, the 500-word text was within the normal expectations of an hour's work. We got what we expected. We are happy.
The next day, the same client hands us over another 500-word text for translation (Veterinary).
We normally translate 500 words in 1 hour.
We charge this client by the word.
It takes us 0,5 hour to do this task (contained a quote that we simply had to copy/paste from the Internet, etc.).
Our per-word rate is based on what we consider our hour of work is worth.
This time, the 500-word text was BELOW the normal expectations of an hour's work. We got more than expected. We are happy.
The next day, the same client hands us over another 500-word text for translation (Veterinary).
We normally translate 500 words in 1 hour.
We charge this client by the word.
It takes us 1,5 hours to do this task (contained a more demanding part, there were more instructions from the client, etc.).
Our per-word rate is based on what we consider our hour of work is worth.
This time, the 500-word text was ABOVE the normal expectations of an hour's work. We got less than expected. We are not happy.
What would you have preferred? To have charged by the hour or by word?
This is why I think the fair rate is by the hour: you get paid for the actual time you spent on the job. It is fair for you and for the client.
Fair means being paid for and/or paying for the actual work done, i.e., the exact amount of time spent on the execution of that job, not more, not less.
If our task takes us 2 hours, instead of the 6 hours that was forseen, i.e., less hours, then 2 hours is the fair price. Why should we be paid 6 hours if we only worked for 2 hours?
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| Not all hours are created equal | Apr 25, 2023 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
There will always be translators who believe that the more manual work they do and the longer they deliver it, the more value they add and the more professional they are. (It's not about you, but just a general statement, not to oppose but to add to what you said.)
Why should I earn less simply because I know how to save my and my client's time? I can't see why hourly rate is much more fair or reasonable than that based on word count.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 13:12 GMT]
That’s why I bill a reasonable number of hours rather than actual hours.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Ţările de Jos
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2006)
din engleză în afrikaans
+ ...
Marina Taffetani wrote:
I've just come across this page, which is actually about copywriters, although IMO what it says can be applied to translators as well...
While it's useful to look at, the way copywriters produce content is different from the way translators do.
Copywriters are authors; we are just converters. Yes, some texts take longer to convert than others, but ultimately I don't need to think about *how* I'm going to communicate a message that exists only as a concept -- I can piggy back on the effort that the copywriter have put into doing that, and I need to do is figure out the best way to communicate the same message in my target language.
I'm not saying that translation does not involve creativity, but what it doesn't involve is creating content from scratch.
FWIW:
It's true that charging per word can put unnecessary pressure on your rates, but this can also affect the client. If a job is 2500 words long and my rate is 10c per word, then that's $250 for the job. I can easily change this to $260 without it looking odd. But if would look strange if I were to change my rate from USD 0.10 per word to USD 0.104 per word per word.
This means that the per-word method forces translators to work with round multiples, which can affect the total price of a project much more than rounding the actual amount for the project as a whole.
An hourly rate for the above example would also look a bit weird. If it takes me 11 hours to translate 2500 words, and I want to earn $250 for the job, that's $22.75 per hour. If I then want to earn $260 for the job, I'd have to change my hourly rate to $23.70. Talk about "complicated".
[Edited at 2023-04-26 06:27 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
Statele Unite
Local time: 08:26
Membru (2005)
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
| Translators are all different in terms of efficiency and effectiveness | Apr 25, 2023 |
Translators have different hourly outputs, and if they must finish a set volume of work per hour, the quality of their outputs would vary greatly. These factors would make the clients think paying them by hour would be more complicated. Budgeting a project by word count is more straightforward.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 22:05 GMT]
| | | | Stepan Konev
Federaţia Rusă
Local time: 15:26
din engleză în rusă
| This is not an hour-based rate | Apr 25, 2023 |
Ice Scream wrote:
That’s why I bill a reasonable number of hours rather than actual hours. What is your reason based on? If you don't bill actual hours but some other hours based on something else, then you don't actually use an hour-based rate
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Stepan Konev
Federaţia Rusă
Local time: 15:26
din engleză în rusă
| 500 words per hour is not a standard translation rate | Apr 25, 2023 |
Maria-da-Fé Albuquerque wrote:
We normally translate 500 words in 1 hour. This rate is 2 times the average rate in the industry. It takes one hour to translate 250 to 300 words, not 500. But even if you are happy with that, it is your choice, ok.
However from what you described I would definitely prefer a per word estimate because it is always transparent: source words can't change while you translate. With your scenarios you need a crystal ball to forecast your performance. As to me, your examples clearly demonstrate that the hourly-based rate is much less predictable, accurate and fair. You still measure your normal hour in words (you mention 500 words in each paragraph) and you never know how much time you would actually need.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 19:40 GMT]
| | | | | Why not both (at our discretion)? | Apr 25, 2023 |
That’s what I do. For instance, last week one of my dear clients sent me a translation I had done a few months ago asking for an update, this meant translating some new parts, deleting others and changing some formatting. The only way to invoice this job was per hour. I also do some transcreation, always invoiced per hour. Editing and proofreading are also invoiced per hour, but translation is usually invoiced per word, though occasionally I invoice a flat price (per project).
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia şi Herţegovina
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2009)
din engleză în croată
+ ...
| Totally disagree | Apr 25, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
My thoughts on the subject: I think you can't compare the translation industry to lawyers and the like. The work of translators is measurable in words (before the computer era it was measured in lines btw), the work of a laywer or accountant isn't. I don't think it's more difficult than that, to be honest.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 07:39 GMT]
It’s not about words at all. It’s about concepts and they can’t be measured with anything. You can perhaps measure apples or oranges the way you described/ per piece.
| | | | Philip Lees
Grecia
Local time: 15:26
din greacă în engleză
Lieven Malaise wrote:
I read a lot of complaints about the reduced payment of repetitions and fuzzies, but in several cases I'm still paid 10% and even 20% for a repetition that costs me no work at all.
No work at all? Really? You mean you don't even check them?
I suppose it depends on the language pair, but in mine there would be many "repetitions" that need to be translated as a different word.
And frankly, I doubt whether there are any two languages in the world that have a complete one-to-one correspondence.
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Samuel Murray
Ţările de Jos
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2006)
din engleză în afrikaans
+ ...
| @Maria-da-Fé | Apr 26, 2023 |
Maria-da-Fé Albuquerque wrote:
Our per-word rate is based on what we consider our hour of work is worth.
Err, no. The per-word rate is based on what the market will accept.
If your rate is higher than what the market that you're targeting will accept, then you will get fewer jobs in that particular market. If your rate is lower than what your market will accept, you will run into other problems: e.g. some clients will avoid you because they suspect that you're a cheap translator. For higher-paying clients you would charge the higher rate, regardless of what you consider your hour is worth. For lower-paying clients (if you accept to work for them), you would charge the lower rate, even if it is less than what you consider your hour is worth.
[Edited at 2023-04-26 06:35 GMT]
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgia
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2020)
din franceză în olandeză
+ ...
Ice Scream wrote:
And as for getting paid 10-20% for matches requiring no work at all, I’d love to come across some matches like that. Not even having to read them, let alone correct them or adjust them to the context or see how they affect the terminology and tone of the rest of the text. Haven’t come across any of them yet. Maybe it’s because I don’t use MT?
MT has nothing to do with it. Automated repetitions are generated by a CAT tool, and are exactly how they sound: a 100% repetition of a sentence/line you previously translated in the same text. I can't even begin imagining how many repetitions I've already 'dealt' with in my career.
Ice Scream wrote:
It’s only agencies that don’t trust you to be honest and fair. Says something about them, really.
It says mostly that direct clients often don't have a clue about the technical possibilities agencies do know about.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgia
Local time: 14:26
Membru (2020)
din franceză în olandeză
+ ...
| Your rate should indeed reflect your work | Apr 26, 2023 |
Maria-da-Fé Albuquerque wrote:
and often our per word rate does not reflect this extra time we spend at work.
That's a problem, indeed. But there is no one stopping you from figuring out a word rate that reflects all your work. I have a (more or less) predictable income because my word rate covers everything I have to do to satisfy my customers. And if I'm asked to do a translation of which I think it won't be profitable to me at my normal rate, then I just explain that I will have to ask a higher rate for that specific assignment.
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